Conversation

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh

[Ministers for Endowments, Social Services, Revenue, Public Works Department, Minor Irrigation, Rehabilitation and Fisheries] [Hindi]

[17:44]

Prabhupāda: Our subject matter of Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement is that systematize... The progress of human society should be systematized according to śāstra. Just like your government, it is conducted under certain rules and regulations. You have to refer to the government regulative principles, and expert government officers, they are selected. Formally it was ICS, now it is IAS. That means reference to the authorities. Similarly, there are authorities which are called śāstra. Śās-dhātu means to rule. From śās-dhātu, śāstra and śastra. Śastra means weapon. If you do not act according to the śāstra then there is śastra. Śastra means weapon, government. If you violate the rules of the government then there is police department, there is military department which will force you to accept the government regulation. And from the same śās-dhātu is śiṣya, one who voluntarily accepts the discipline.

yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ na sa siddhim avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim [Bg 16.23]

[But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination.]

The aim of human life is parāṁ gatim. Parāṁ gatim means the supreme perfection. Gatim means progress, and parām means the supreme. Our life is progressive. By evolution we have come to this human form of life through many forms of life.

jalajā nava-lakṣāṅi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyayaḥ pakṣīṅāṁ daśa-lakṣaṅam [Padma Purāṅa]

Like that. In the beginning there was water, so the living entities were aquatics. Then, as the land came out, sthāvara, then plants, creepers, trees. So we have to pass through nine lakhs' species of life in the water. Then trees, plants, two millions, twenty lakhs. In this way there are 8,400,000 species of life, and when you come to the human form of life... Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg 7.19],

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

we get this form of life. Now we have to select: parāṁ gatim or adho gatim. We are given the chance of human form of life for further advancement. And that is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām [Bg 9.25]

[Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship Me will live with Me.]

So if you worship the demigods, Indra, Candra, Varuṅa—yānti deva-vratā devān—then you can go to the higher planetary system. They are trying to go to the moon planet. In that way it is not possible. You have to be qualified to go there, not by machine, by force you can go there. That is not possible. Yānti deva-vratā devān. So... And also you can go, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. You can go to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So we have to make choice in this human form of life. Actually, the aim should be to go back home, back to Godhead. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg 15.6].

[That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.]

Ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna [Bg 8.16].

[From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again.]

Otherwise, within this material world, even if you go to the higher planetary system, then punar āvartinaḥ, you have to come back again. Now the human form of life should be properly utilized. If we think that this life is everything, that is wrong conception of life. Kṛṣṅa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg 2.13].

[As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.]

You have to change this body. Transmigration of the soul. So by transmigration of the soul we have got this human form of life. If we properly utilize it, then you can make further progress. And if we do not, if we keep ourself as animals, then we'll degrade. Adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ.

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ jaghanya-guṅa-vṛtti-sthā adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ [Bg 14.18]

[Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds.]

So nature's law is there, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṅāni guṅaiḥ karmāṅi sarvaśaḥ [Bg 3.27].

[The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature.]

We are not independent. We are dependent under the laws of material nature. So we should properly utilize this human form of life, and government or king means to guide the citizens how to make progress of life. That is the duty of the government. They should be given all chances to make progress. Formerly, all the kings were responsible for the progress of the citizens, progress of life. The same principle should be followed. That is the statement of the śāstra. The brāhmaṅa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra... To maintain the body, just like we require the head, the arms, the belly and the legs, similarly, we must maintain the brain of the society, the brāhmaṅa; and the arms of the society, kṣatriyas; and the belly of the society, the vaiśyas; and the legs of the society, the śūdra. Everything is required. Not that simply brain is required and leg is not required. No, everything is required under proper guidance for the total benefit of the society. So direction is there. That is śāstra. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya... If we do not care for the śāstra, whimsically manufacture our own ways of life, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti, it will never be successful. Na sukham. And there will be no happiness. Na parāṁ gatim. Therefore the whole process is yajñārthāt karmaṅa. Yajñārthāt karmaṅo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg 3.9].

[Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṅu has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kuntī, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage.]

Yajñārthāt. Yajña means the Supreme Lord, Viṣṅu. Yajña means yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. After performing yajña, if we enjoy life, then there is no sinful reaction. Otherwise, bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṅāt [Bg 3.13].

[The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin.]

So all directions are there in the śāstra, and the essence of all Vedic literature is the Bhagavad-gītā. So at the present moment, our this Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement is that it doesn't matter what kind of state it is, but it should follow the principle of yajña. Yajñārthe karmaṅa. Otherwise, we shall be responsible. Just like, for example, a military man, what is his business? His business is killing. So by the government order he is killing, and the more number of enemies he kills, he gets medal, reward. But the same man, if he kills one man, he'll be hanged—for his own sense gratification. He cannot argue that "In the military camp I have killed so many men, and I was rewarded, and now I have killed one man and I am going to be hanged. Why?" The question may be raised. No foolish man will raise the question. That means that killing is under the superior order, and this killing is for your sense gratification. So if you do anything for our sense gratification then it will be stena eva sa ucyate [Bg 3.12].

[In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajña [sacrifice], supply all necessities to man. But he who enjoys these gifts, without offering them to the demigods in return, is certainly a thief.]

He is punishable. But if we execute the supreme order, then you are rewarded. The same action.

We are requesting therefore everywhere—not only in India; all over the world—that act according to the order of the Supreme, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And gradually they are accepting the principle. So why not in India? In India... The Bhagavad-gītā was spoken in India. Still, in India there are many devotees, many Kṛṣṅa conscious persons. Especially in this province, you are very great devotees of Bālajī. Bālajī is Kṛṣṅa, Bāla Kṛṣṅa. So I wish that the government may be conducted under the guide of Bālajī, Lord Kṛṣṅa. That is my request. And the codes and the orders and the rules and regulations, they're all stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So if we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā and accept... We accept, consciously or unconsciously. That is our Indian culture, Vedic culture. Still, hundreds and thousands of people go to see Bālajī, and they contribute their hard-earned money for worshiping the Lord. This is the principle. Yajñārthāt karmaṅo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg 3.9].

I have seen in Bālajī temple, mostly cultivators, they come, stand whole day there just to offer something, yajñārthe, for the satisfaction of the Lord. It's a great culture. Yajñārthe karmaṅo 'nyatra.

So karma, ordinary fruitive activities, should be carried on for yajñārthe, for the satisfaction of Bālajī, or Kṛṣṅa. Not otherwise. The same, what is gathered as contribution, it should be utilized for yajña. Because the money is given for yajña, not for other purposes. That is a fact. Of course, the money is there. The innocent villagers, they have given the money in good faith that Kṛṣṅa, or Bālajī, will accept it and their hard labor will be successful. Yajñārthe karmaṅa. Now that money should be properly utilized for yajñārthe. Actually, everything belongs to God, Bālajī. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1].

[Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong.]

We are claiming unnecessarily, "This is mine." That is called māyā. Nothing belongs to us. Everything belongs to the Supreme Lord. But we have claimed the Lord's property as our own. That is misgiving. Therefore yajña is recommended. Return to the Supreme voluntarily. That is called yajña.

varṅāśramācāra-vatā puruṣeṅa paraḥ pumān viṣṅur ārādhyate panthā nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṅam [Cc Madhya 8.58]

[The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Viṣṅu, is worshiped by the proper execution of prescribed duties in the system of varṅa and āśrama. There is no other way to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One must be situated in the institution of the four varṅas and āśramas.’]

The varṅāśrama-dharma—brāhmaṅa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—this is plan just to teach the whole society how to perform yajña. Varṅāśramācāra-vatā. Therefore this is the beginning of human civilization, varṅāśrama: how to return back. Just like Bali Mahārāja. Bali Mahārāja achieved, obtained, throughout the universe all the property, and he again returned to Vāmana. That was his success of life. So this Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement is an educational movement to teach people how one should voluntarily return the property of the Lord to the Lord. That is called yajña. Yajñārthāt karmaṅo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg 3.9].

So people actually suffering. Not only... This material life means suffering. We may say that we are very happy, but that is not the fact. Tri-tāpa, three kinds of miserable condition of life, are there always: adhyātmika, adhibhautika, adhidaivika. But we are accustomed to suffering, and we say suffering is happiness. That is called māyā. Actually, material life is... This body, as soon as we get this body, it means suffering.

nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṅoti na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ [SB 5.5.4]

Kleśada. Material body means kleśa, suffering. Why you are using this fan? Because without fan the body will be in pain, painful condition. So we are adjusting, trying to counteract. But the position is miserable. Therefore whole plan of Vedic civilization—how to avoid this material body. That is called mokṣa. That is the plan. So Ṛṣabhadeva is advising that nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. People have become mad, and they're doing everything which is not sanctioned by the śāstra. Pramatta. Pramatta means mad. And why they have become mad? Indriya-prītaye: for sense gratification. There is no big hope. It is simply sense gratification. Sense gratification is there even in the animal life. So human life is not meant for sense gratification. That is also said in the śāstra.

nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvaṁ yena brahmānandam-anantam [SB 5.5.1]

[Lord Ṛṣabhadeva told His sons: My dear boys, of all the living entities who have accepted material bodies in this world, one who has been awarded this human form should not work hard day and night simply for sense gratification, which is available even for dogs and hogs that eat stool. One should engage in penance and austerity to attain the divine position of devotional service. By such activity, one's heart is purified, and when one attains this position, he attains eternal, blissful life, which is transcendental to material happiness and which continues forever.]

So the human life is meant for tapasya, not for sense gratification. Sense gratification, the facility is there even in the hogs' and dogs' life.

So the human life is meant for yajña. We have got this chance. And especially in your province there is Bālajī, and Bālajī has got sufficient income. That income should be utilized for satisfaction of Bālajī. Not otherwise. That is our request. People are suffering for want of God consciousness. So everything should be spent for spreading God consciousness all over the world. At least, people are contributing to Bālajī, so whatever Bālajī's property is there, that should be utilized for Bālajī's mission. The Bālajī's mission is... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68]

na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg 18.69]

This idaṁ guhyam, this confidential knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā, should be spread all over the world. People are suffering. And that is the mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He advises that,

āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṅa-upadeśa [Cc Madhya 7.128]

[Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa as they are given in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.]

So it will be glory of India if we preach the message of Kṛṣṅa, Bhagavad-gītā. They're accepting. And I wish that the Bālajī's estate, Bālajī's money, should be spent for spreading Kṛṣṅa consciousness, not for any other purpose. That is my request.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. [applause]

Indian man (1): Please permit...

Prabhupāda: Your question is?

Indian man (1): Yes, varṅāśrama, I wanted to, Swāmījī...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varṅāśramācāra-vatā. The varṅa and āśrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly and the leg. Similarly, varṅāśrama means the head, brāhmaṅa; the arms, kṣatriya; the belly, vaiśya; and the leg, śūdra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varṅa, four varṅas, and four āśramas. Four varṅas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division—brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa—the social division must be observed. The brain must be there, brāhmaṅa. Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also required—military department, or kṣatriya department. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam [Bg 18.43]. The kṣatriyas are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Kṛṣṅa chastised him, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam anārya-juṣṭam akīrti-karam [Bg 2.2]. So everything is required. It is not that everyone should become brāhmaṅa. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṅa. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brāhmaṅa must be maintained. A class of brāhmaṅa must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of kṣatriya must be there, a class of vaiśya must be there. This is called varṅāśrama. For the peaceful execution of material life these things are required, division. Just like in your government you have got some different ministerial department you have introduced: this minister is for this department, this minister... Similarly, the brain department must be there. Without brain, even... Suppose a madman, he has got his hands and legs, but it is useless because the brain is lost. So brain must be there.

So this varṅāśrama, revival of varṅāśrama, is required. A class of men, brāhmaṅa—sattva śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg 18.42].

[Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṅas work.]

As there are different educational system, there must be an educational institute where these things are taught: how to become truthful, how to become self-controlled, how to become full in knowledge, how to become full believer in the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Āstikyam. In this way, as there is necessity of engineer, as there is necessity of medical man, as there is necessity of so many other departmental chiefs, similarly, a department of brāhmaṅa, a department of kṣatriya—that education must be given.

But in this age, because nobody is interested, so everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg 18.44].

[Farming, cow protection and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas, and for the śūdras there is labor and service to others.]

Everyone, all over the world, they are being educated to seek after some good service. Paricarya: he must have a good master; then his education will be... He cannot act independently. So therefore in the śāstra it is said that everyone is anxious to get a good job; therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ, in this age almost everyone is śūdra. So if śūdras are there only, if there is no brāhmaṅa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, that society will not prosper very much, if we accept the injunction of the śāstra, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma [Bg 16.23].

[But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination.]

So this brāhmaṅa, or kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is not by birth; it is by qualification.

[applause and words of agreement from audience]

Guṅa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg 4.13].

[According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable.]

Guṅa. One must acquire the quality of brāhmaṅa and he must act as a brāhmaṅa. Then he is brāhmaṅa. Guṅa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Even in śūdra family, if one is born śūdra, but he has attained the quality of a brāhmaṅa, he must be accepted as brāhmaṅa. That is the śāstra injunction.

yasya yal lakṣaṅaṁ proktaṁ varṅābhivyañjakam yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet [SB 7.11.35]

[If one shows the symptoms of being a brāhmaṅa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or śūdra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification.]

That is anyatra. If the quality of brāhmaṅa is found in a person who is born in a śūdra family, he should be accepted as brāhmaṅa. Similarly, if the quality of brāhmaṅa is found in śūdra or the śūdra quality found in brāhmaṅa, I mean to say birth, by caste, as it is going on now, so Nārada Muni has said—this is the statement of Nārada Muni, the greatest authority—yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet [SB 7.11.35]. So birth is not the final thing. If one is born in a brāhmaṅa family or kṣatriya family, he has got the facility to become quickly a brāhmaṅa; but if he has no quality, if he does not practice, then he is not to be accepted as brāhmaṅa. You may be a son of a high-court judge, but unless you have got the quality of high-court judge, it is not that because you are born of high-court judge you become a high-court judge. That is not, that is not the quality. The quality is...

So therefore I say that there must be educational institution for training brāhmaṅa, kṣatriya, especially. And vaiśyas, they do not require any academical area. Kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṅijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg 18.44].

[Farming, cow protection and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas, and for the śūdras there is labor and service to others.]

They can learn simply by associating with another vaiśya. But brāhmaṅa, especially, require education, Vedic literature. Paṭhana-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ. Kṣatriya also requires education. Others, they may not require education. Practical training. These things should be introduced. Then human society will be perfect—not by birth, but by quality, by education, by training. But that is possible. So your answer...

Indian man (1): No, the institution for training this, Swāmījī? Your proposition?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. I have got so many ideas.

Indian man (1): In Hyderabad.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṅa. [ministers speaking in Hindi] [break] ...institute in your own proposal.

[pause]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi conversation] This is Telugu?

Indian man: Yes, all Telegu.

Prabhupāda: In every language of the world. In Europe we are printing in English, in French, in Germany, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish.

[much background conversation]

Hare Kṛṣṅa. [break] [kīrtana]

[54:35] [in car]

Hari-śauri: That temple of Birla's will be a little difficult to reach. [end]