Morning Walk

Prabhupāda: ...is real scientist. Those who change every year theory, I don't like that scientist. Do you like that scientist?

Dr. Patel: No.

Prabhupāda: Then who? Nobody, no gentleman likes that.

Dr. Patel: He's not a scientist, who changes himself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot change your position. That is science. Kṛṣṅa has said that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg 7.7].

[O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.]

So nobody has become greater than Kṛṣṅa up till now. That is science. Can anyone challenge Kṛṣṅa? No. And He has said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. So that is scientist.

Dr. Patel: No, but the scientists try to unearth the secrets of Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Scientists, the modern science, is trying to unearth the secrets of Kṛṣṅa only.

Prabhupāda: Trying to...?

Dr. Patel: Unearth the secret of Kṛṣṅa. Kṛṣṅa's māyā.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa's māyā.

Dr. Patel: Māyā, we are trying to unearth the secret of Kṛṣṅa's māyā. Those two scientists must come forward, eh? Now he is going to throw a bombshell.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Dr. Patel: The difference of each comes in practically two, three Upaniṣads, the one which you have also commented. There is. That happens, the Muṅḍakopaniṣad, in the beginning. dve vidye veditavya parā cāparā ca. So we are the scientists of the aparā-vidyā; you are the scientist of the parā-vidyā. So we must not have any quarrel. We have divided our sphere of activity.

Prabhupāda: No, there is no quarrel, but we say that these are for the rascals. Yes. Aparā-vidyā is for the rascals.

Dr. Patel: No, no, even the greatest of the saints, namely, the guru of... I mean, Śuka Mahārāja, also he had the first aparā-vidyā. Then parā-vidyā... Aparā-vidyā is the first step.

Prabhupāda: And so long you are in aparā-vidyā, you remain a rascal.

Dr. Patel: No, but we always have to put up our step on the aparā-vidyā. Then you put up your step on the parā-vidyā. You can't jump over it.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No. There is no question of jumping, but things should be realized as it is. Aparā... This is aparā; this is parā. So this is inferior; this is superior. That you have to admit.

Dr. Patel: This was the question of Nārada Muni himself in the beginning.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And it is explained about aparā-vidyā, antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām [Bg 7.23].

[Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.]

Therefore rascal, alpa-medhasa. Alpa means no brain, no brain.

Dr. Patel: They have got those questions of bhakti other than of Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Alpa, alpa...

Prabhupāda: This aparā-vidyā... Parā-vidyā means Kṛṣṅa. Parā-vidyā means Kṛṣṅa. So one who... Unless one comes to the point of Kṛṣṅa, he is in the aparā-vidyā. And aparā-vidyā is meant for the less intelligent class of men. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām.

Dr. Patel: Then the whole question was, sir, here in Upaniṣad that...

Prabhupāda: Upaniṣad is parā-vidyā.

Dr. Patel: But when, when Muni went...

Prabhupāda: Upaniṣad is the beginning of parā-vidyā.

Dr. Patel: That's right, sir. He said that "What you have learned? Let me know what you have learned. Then I will teach you further on."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: And they said that we have...

Prabhupāda: To know what is your position, whether still you are foolish or you have become intelligent. That is...

Dr. Patel: If he had not become intelligent, he would not have gone there.

Prabhupāda: That has to be... Then...

Dr. Patel: That means he had become intelligent.

Prabhupāda: That is all right. That is all right. He has gone to the.... That is pious. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtinaḥ [Bg 7.16].

[O best among the Bhāratas [Arjuna], four kinds of pious men render devotional service unto Me—the distressed, the desirer of wealth, the inquisitive, and he who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute.]

Anyone who goes to Kṛṣṅa or guru for asking, he is pious. He is not miscreant. Duṣkṛtina. He is not duṣkṛtina. He is pious. Maybe he is in the lower position, but he is pious. That is described. And one who does not go either to Kṛṣṅa or His representative, he is duṣkṛtina, narādhama. This is the difference. One man is suffering from some disease. If he has gone to the physician, he is intelligent. And one who says, "Ha, what is this? I don't care for that," he's a rascal. That's all.

Dr. Patel: He must come to me. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who accepts that "I must be treated," he is intelligent.

Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, but parā-vidyā is meant for the body, aparā-vidyā, I mean to say. Parā-vidyā is meant for the soul.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: So soul and body has got to live together. So there is a necessity of aparā-vidyā also to keep your body going.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Parā-vidyā does not mean to reject the body.

Dr. Patel: Sir, there is a necessity of aparā-vidyā.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No. That is to make the best use of a bad bargain, how to use the body best to perfect parā-vidyā. That is intelligence. Just like you have a car. A car is not neglected. We don't kick out car. But it must be used for spreading Kṛṣṅa consciousness.

Dr. Patel: That is what I say, sir, that you must have the knowledge of car, and that knowledge of car is aparā-vidyā.

Prabhupāda: No. No. No. There is no need of. You have the car, you can go from this place to that place very quickly, so utilize it for Kṛṣṅa conscious.

Dr. Patel: They must know how to drive it. That is knowledge. Why do you say no?

Prabhupāda: That automatically comes.

Dr. Patel: How can you automatically? Nothing can come automatically.

Prabhupāda: You'll see many drivers, they do not know about mechanics, but very first class driver.

Dr. Patel: Well, learning driving is a knowledge of driving.

Prabhupāda: Yes, driving, that is...

Dr. Patel: Svarūpa[?], why don't you say something?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Many... Many first-class owner.... You know. You are a physician. You are not a motor mechanics, but you know how to drive. That is not very difficult thing.

Gurudāsa: Isn't it when you drive for Kṛṣṅa, doesn't it become parā-vidyā then?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Gurudāsa: When you drive for Kṛṣṅa, doesn't it becomes parā-vidyā?

Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is done for Kṛṣṅa, that is parā-vidyā.

Dr. Patel: Anything spoken for Kṛṣṅa, Kṛṣṅa is parā-vāṅī, and this is parā-vidyā.

Prabhupāda: Vāsudeva-parā... There is a verse, vāsudeva-parāḥ karma vāsudeva-parā... Like that.

Dr. Patel: Vāsudeva-parā makhāḥ vāsudeva-parā [SB 1.2.28].

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So everything should be for Vāsudeva. And he is first-class wise man who knows vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā... [Bg 7.19].

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

Dr. Patel: Sudurlabhaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But such kind of intelligent person is very rare.

Dr. Patel: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, sir, you get actually when you become the real Vaiṣṅava, because then you see the presence of God in every inanimate and animate object.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is...

Dr. Patel: That is real Vaiṣṅava. Otherwise you are not.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Without Vāsudeva, without Kṛṣṅa's order.... Mayādhyakṣeṅa [Bg 9.10].

[This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.]

Everything is being done under His superintendence. Mayādhyakṣeṅa. Even in the prakṛti, aparā and parā... There are two prakṛtis. So even in aparā-prakṛti there is superintendence of Kṛṣṅa.

Dr. Patel: I am interrupting you, sir. Mayādhyakṣeṅa sūyate prakṛtiḥ sa-carācaram.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Now then, mayādhyakṣeṅa, we want to learn how He adhyakṣa, and that is our vidyā, and that is our aparā-vidyā.

Prabhupāda: That is parā-vidyā.

Dr. Patel: That is real scientist.

Prabhupāda: That is parā-vidyā.

Dr. Patel: And don't now, please, say we are...

Prabhupāda: No, no, then don't refer to parā-vidyā[?].

Dr. Patel: We are trying to learn it.

Prabhupāda: No, but you defy Kṛṣṅa.

Dr. Patel: Do you defy by trying to learn His mayādhyakṣeṅa sūyate prakṛtiḥ sa-carācaram [Bg 9.10]?

[This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.]

Prabhupāda: No, now scientists say that "Now we are advanced. We don't require God." There is a book. Yes. "We don't require God. Now we shall adjust. We shall create... We shall create human being according to our necessity."

Dr. Patel: You are also scientist. You are on one side.

Prabhupāda: You know that?

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, sir. Right, sir.

Prabhupāda: They say that "We shall create human being according to our necessity."

Dr. Patel: It is not possible to... Can they create a leaf? Then let them create a human.

Prabhupāda: But that... Therefore we say rascals.

Dr. Patel: But then you don't bracket all of us, together. We are four or five of us here. We are next to you. We are none of those.

Prabhupāda: Then the same theory, that "This side of stool is dry. It is good." [laughter] Yes.

Dr. Patel: Because it going to be manure, manure the food.

Prabhupāda: "And the other side is moist; therefore it is bad."

Dr. Patel: Yes, sir. That type of stool which goes and manures the crop, that is good, evidently.

Prabhupāda: No, no, after all, stool, this side or that side... The whole conclusion is that unless one is surrendered to Kṛṣṅa, he remains in darkness.

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Prabhupāda: That is the point. Therefore we are trying to enlighten people to Kṛṣṅa consciousness.

Dr. Patel: And a scientist trying to unearth the secret of nature means Kṛṣṅa. He is doing work for Kṛṣṅa, and he cannot be...

Prabhupāda: No, no, everyone has to work for Kṛṣṅa. Just like a prisoner in the prison house. He is also working for government, but he is forced to do it. Then nobody can escape Kṛṣṅa. That is not possible.

Dr. Patel: Right, sir. But the scientist is not forced to do it. He freely does it.

Prabhupāda: No, anyone. Why scientist? Even cats and dogs, they are also doing for Kṛṣṅa. You cannot... Nobody can say...

Dr. Patel: But scientist willingly does it to unearth the secret. Don't call him a rascal. The scientist does it.

Prabhupāda: No, I don't say; Kṛṣṅa says.

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṅa says those people are rascal who does not believe in Him.

Prabhupāda: So anyway, that is the test. If you don't believe in Kṛṣṅa, you are rascal. That's all. We are simple child, and Kṛṣṅa has said that anyone who has not surrendered, he's a rascal. So we say, "Are you surrendered to Kṛṣṅa?" "No." "You are a rascal." [laughter] No. Our test is very simple.

Dr. Patel: And what do you mean by surrendering, sir?

Prabhupāda: He does not know anything but Kṛṣṅa. He knows everything...

Dr. Patel: Surrendering means by mental process if I do through my mind. This is my definition. My mental process in the...

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Dr. Patel: Everything happening is... By Kṛṣṅa's grace he's surrendering to...

Prabhupāda: Not mental. No mental concoction. Factual. Factual.

Dr. Patel: That is factual. That everything is...

Prabhupāda: No, mental concoction is not factual.

Dr. Patel: Sir, but I am... You don't let me speak. I say that everything which is happening, a phenomena, is nothing but by the grace of God or by Kṛṣṅa's own order, and if that...

Prabhupāda: And you have no responsibility.

Dr. Patel: And that mental process, if you are working, is it a wrong mental process?

Prabhupāda: So here is a greatest wrong. No, no. If your patient comes, that "It is by Kṛṣṅa's wish I have become diseased," then where is your department? You don't...

Dr. Patel: But by Kṛṣṅa's grace I have become a doctor. Both the ways. Why see on one side?

Prabhupāda: Then say that. Why do you say one side?

Dr. Patel: Of course, everything is by Kṛṣṅa. The man is diseased by Kṛṣṅa, I am produced by Kṛṣṅa, I'll care by Kṛṣṅa this, that man, and that man dies, he will die by Kṛṣṅa's grace.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Dr. Patel: Then that is Kṛṣṅa's grace.

Prabhupāda: Then that is all right.

Dr. Patel: That is what I have been saying.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. That is Kṛṣṅa conscious. Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Dr. Patel: I think I am not wrong. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: No, when in everything you see Kṛṣṅa, that is the highest stage. That is the highest stage.

sthāvara-jaṅgama dekhe, nā dekhe tāra mūrti sarvatra haya nija iṣṭa-deva-sphūrti [Cc Madhya 8.274]

[The mahā-bhāgavata, the advanced devotee, certainly sees everything mobile and immobile, but he does not exactly see their forms. Rather, everywhere he immediately sees manifest the form of the Supreme Lord.]

When one sees, he sees this beach, but he does not see beach, he sees Kṛṣṅa, that is the highest stage.

Dr. Patel: I was meaning that, but unfortunately my expression was very poor.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be.

Dr. Patel: I am not student of literature like you.

Prabhupāda: Nothing can exist... Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. So everything is Kṛṣṅa. Kṛṣṅa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. Where is not Kṛṣṅa? But the Māyāvādī says, "Everything is Kṛṣṅa; therefore let me worship the sand." That is rascaldom. "What is the use of going to the temple? Let me worship the sand." That is rascaldom. Kṛṣṅa says clearly, therefore,

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ [Bg 9.4]

[By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.]

Dr. Patel: Na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ means no more important.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: So I look a fool and they'll become wise, all of them, eh?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You are wise.

Dr. Patel: They want that I should say something, and then you call me a rascal, and they take pleasure in it.

Gurudāsa: No, no. Para-duḥkhī.

Dr. Patel: No, no, no. I say all right...

Gurudāsa: Vaiṣṅava is not happy in someone else's misery.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṅa. [break] ...possible if you remain with the devotees. [Hindi] ...nondevotees' association. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido, bhavanti hṛt-karṅa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ [SB 3.25.25].

[In the association of pure devotees, discussion of the pastimes and activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very pleasing and satisfying to the ear and the heart. By cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. Then real devotion and devotional service begin.]

Satāṁ prasaṅgāt. Amongst devotees if you remain, then kṛṣṅa-kathā will be so pleasing, rasāyanāḥ kathā, rasāyana. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said,

tādera caraṅa-sebī-bhakta-sane bās janame janame hoy ei abhilāṣ

Dr. Patel: The sat-saṅga.

Prabhupāda: Yes, sat-saṅga.

Dr. Patel: Is satāṁ saṅga? It is sat-saṅga.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Even good literature saṅga is also sat-saṅga, is it not?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Patel: So I am... In the morning I do your sat-saṅga, and afterwards I do the sat-saṅga of Bhāgavata and Bhagavad-gītā. So it is a continuous sat-saṅga. So don't say I am not doing it. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: No, no, you are not... I don't say that you are rascal.

Dr. Patel: No, about sat-saṅga.

Prabhupāda: Rather, I think myself rascal because... [laughter]

Dr. Patel: I say about sat-saṅga. Let us turn the issue.

Prabhupāda: I could not draw you in my temple.

Dr. Patel: You have drawn me lot, but still, you are dragging me by leg nowadays.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Into our hospital.

Indian: [Hindi]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: We have hospitals...

Dr. Patel: I think I am not fit to be with you, so far I consider myself.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is.

Dr. Patel: I must correct myself and all my defects. Otherwise I would pollute you. [break] [laughter] I will become after sixty-five.

Prabhupāda: You are fifteen years late already. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: I must follow you. How much late you were? I will come after you. [break] ...you think, sir, that is more important than...

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Dr. Patel: You must have the clothing in the internal side.

Prabhupāda: No, clothing is... Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī [Bg 6.1].

[The Blessed Lord said: One who is unattached to the fruits of his work and who works as he is obligated is in the renounced order of life, and he is the true mystic: not he who lights no fire and performs no work.]

It is not the clothing. Clothing is not... Sa yogī ca na niragnir na cākriyaḥ. [Hindi] And continually doing that mahā-pāpa. [break] ...narādhama.

Dr. Patel: Because they are māyayāpahṛta-jñānā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It means they have no knowledge.

Dr. Patel: Māyā has taken away their vision, their sense of understanding, sense of... What do you call, sense of understanding or sense of...?

Prabhupāda: Sense of reality.

Dr. Patel: Reality. I was trying to say that word, sense of reality. Asuri bhūtiṁ avatāra. But today the whole world is practically asura.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...is a word declared to the asuras. You see? Therefore everyone is our enemy. Nobody likes us, because a declaration of war against the asuras. And we are fighting with some teeny soldiers, that's all. And they are very strong. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. Jaya. Thank you. Jaya. [break] ...we don't want who says that "Why you are searching after God? The gods are loitering in the street." Of course, it is in higher sense, but you cannot say respectively, "Everyone is God." Maybe... [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: Now we must not... [Hindi with Prabhupāda]

Prabhupāda: That very word suggests that he is not to that stage where he can see Nārāyaṅa everywhere.

Dr. Patel: That is the highest statement of a Vaiṣṅava. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...therefore there is character. Just like there are some terpinoids[?] or some, so many. If little change is there, immediately the color changes, the flavor change. And who adjusted?

Dr. Patel: There they find Kṛṣṅa, sir.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That has been... I was already telling you, that three colors...

Prabhupāda: No, no. They said that "Now we are scientists. We do not require God." Yes.

Dr. Patel: They are putting, I mean... The putting of a small leaf in a hydrocarbon... You can't put it from that. To that extent we have come in biochemistry or chemistry.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they should admit who has adjusted it. Then who has adjusted like this, so that the color, the flavor, everything is maintained standard? That is real scientist.

Dr. Patel: Svabhāva hetu pravar.[?]

Prabhupāda: Yes. Svabhāva means prakṛti. So mayādhyakṣeṅa prakṛti [Bg 9.10].

[This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.]

Dr. Patel: So under His guidance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So matter cannot work. Yasyājñayā... There is a verse in the Brahma-saṁhitā, sṛṣṭi-sthiti.... Svabhāva is Durgā. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni bibharti durgā, icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā [Bs 5.44].

[The external potency Māyā who is of the nature of the shadow of the cit potency, is worshiped by all people as Durgā, the creating, preserving and destroying agency of this mundane world. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda in accordance with whose will Durgā conducts herself.]

By His desire.

Dr. Patel: No, sir, He desired and said, "Let Me be many," and He became many. So by desire the whole cosmos has come into existence. So by desire the colors change.

Prabhupāda: Even there... Coconut trees, there are varieties. One tree is standing like this; one is standing like this. Varieties.

Dr. Patel: But then one thing, eko bahū... Everything that is..., the Vaiṣṅava fulfillment.

Prabhupāda: No, Vaiṣṅava accepts the varieties.

Dr. Patel: He accept the variety but he sees in Him everywhere.

Prabhupāda: No. Variety is everywhere.

[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. [end]