Morning walk

Morning Walk

Prabhupāda: ...detached to that, Jain. So he was advertising about that Jain Muni.

Dr. Patel: Sushil Kumar.

Prabhupāda: Sushil Kumar. He went to San Francisco. He met me there. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. So he has come back, so I inquired what is the result of his preaching.

Viśāla: [from a distance] All glories to Prabhupāda!

Prabhupāda: He said that he has converted one million persons to be vegetarian. So vegetarian..., automatically our disciples, they are automatically vegetarian. There is no separate preaching. But what about the... He was talking about the ahiṁsā. And I told that vegetarian does not mean ahiṁsā.

Dr. Patel: The ahiṁsā should be practiced by... [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: No, in the śāstra it is said that ahastāni sa-hastānām apadāni catuṣ-padām [SB 1.13.47].

[Those who are devoid of hands are prey for those who have hands; those devoid of legs are prey for the four-legged. The weak are the subsistence of the strong, and the general rule holds that one living being is food for another.]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Phalgūni tatra mahatām.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Phalgūni tatra mahatām.

Prabhupāda: Ah, phalgūni mahatāṁ tatra.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam.

Prabhupāda: Mahatāṁ tatra jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. This is natural, that one jīva is the food for another jīva. So how ahiṁsā is possible?

Dr. Patel: But that has been said in Rāmāyaṅa by that Mātanga[?] Muni, you know, Mātanga Muni who was harboring Śabari, and then he was killing one elephant and living on the elephant for one year, and all other ṛṣis were against him. He was, I mean, not practicing ahiṁsā. Then he gave the feast to all those ṛṣis, and the lāḍu starting moving about. Everywhere there is life, I mean, every grain of the wheat or these things.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore how it is possible? Because, after all, apart from Mātanga Muni, if this is the rule, that one living entity is the food for another living entity... This is the law of nature. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. You cannot starve and live.

Dr. Patel: But sir...

Prabhupāda: And practically... Eh?

Dr. Patel: We are killing the body and not... The soul is inkillable.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Don't go to the philosophy. First of all come to the practical. [Dr. Patel laughs] Come to the practical point of view, that after all, you have to eat; otherwise you cannot live. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam [Hitopadeśa 25].

[Both animals and men share the activities of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. But the special property of the humans is that they are able to engage in spiritual life. Therefore without spiritual life, humans are on the level of animals.]

So if you have to live another living entity, then how you can practice this ahiṁsā? Mean on the basic principle, the ahiṁsā paramo dharma, where is ahiṁsā? You have to kill. Either you kill vegetable or animal, you have to kill. Then where is the standing of ahiṁsā? That is my point.

Dr. Patel: When you kill purposelessly, without any useful...

Prabhupāda: No, no. No interpretation. They say that "no killing." So no killing is not possible. That is my point. Then where is the thesis stands, that "We are for not..., no killing"?

Dr. Patel: Every action, sir, is, I mean, entangled in this.

Prabhupāda: So then our Vaiṣṅava's philosophy is perfect, because we take Kṛṣṅa prasādam. We don't say vegetables. We are not advocating vegetarianism. We are advocating that "You take Kṛṣṅa prasādam." How perfect it is. We are not so nonsense that "Because we have become vegetarian, we are perfect." The goats are vegetarian.

Dr. Patel: [laughter] And we are indirectly vegetarians if we eat goats.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Even if we vegetarian are, then how you become big? The goats are vegetarian. Huh? Apadāni catuṣ-padām [SB 1.13.47].

This vegetable is meant for the catuṣ-padām, for the animals, four-legged animals. If somebody says that "Why shall I take this vegetable? It is meant for the animals. I shall take the animal," that is a good argument. Yes. So to become vegetarian is not ahiṁsā at all. It is a bogus theory. To become a devotee and take Kṛṣṅa prasādam, that is perfect. Kṛṣṅa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg 9.26].

[If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.]

So automatically...

Dr. Patel: He does not say, "Give me a, I mean, a [Hindi]."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam.

Prabhupāda: That. Then there is perfection, if you take Kṛṣṅa prasādam. Prasāde sarva-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate [Bg 2.65].

[For one who is so situated in the Divine consciousness, the threefold miseries of material existence exist no longer; in such a happy state, one's intelligence soon becomes steady.]

So this vegetarianism is no, mean, good position.

Dr. Patel: No, no, the Jains have, I mean, pushed the vegetarians to a very, I mean, to an extent which is...

Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the benefit? The benefit? The goats are vegetarian. Eh? There are so many animals, they are vegetarian. The monkeys are vegetarian.

Dr. Patel: They are perfect vegetarian. Perfect.

Prabhupāda: And they live in the forest.

Dr. Patel: They are sannyāsīs. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: But number-one rogue. Each of them keeping one dozen women, at least, and no discrimination between wife or daughter. No discrimination. Just like hogs. That's all. No discrimination.

Yaśomatīnandana: Cows are also vegetarians.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yaśomatīnandana: Cows, they are also vegetarians.

Prabhupāda: Cows are vegetarian. That's all right. There are many animals, vegetarian. So there is no perfection of life unless we come to the point of Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Simply by becoming vegetarian, simply by becoming nonviolent, simply by... These are all theories only. It has no value.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: The argument is sometimes put forward that not everyone will be able to embrace Kṛṣṅa consciousness fully. Therefore it may be better for them to accept some portion, like, for example, taking up vegetarianism or even doing haṭha-yoga, or something like this is better than nothing.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not very essential. Essential is how to think of Kṛṣṅa. Kṛṣṅa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. He doesn't say that you become vegetarian.

Dr. Patel: That said, tad-arthaṁ karma kaunteya mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara [Bg 3.9]:

[Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṅu has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kuntī, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage.]

"You must do everything for Him, even eating."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That is vegetarianism.

Prabhupāda: Then, then you are... Then automatically he'll become vegetarian. Automatically he'll become vegetarian. If he takes Kṛṣṅa prasādam, then he is vegetarian automatically.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: So it may seem like these other things are stepping-stones to Kṛṣṅa, but is it necessarily so?

Prabhupāda: No stepping-stone. This is the ultimate, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg 18.65],

[Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.]

these four things. Unless you come to this point, there is no question of perfection.

Dr. Patel: That's right. Then you feel that every action of yours is done for Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: Not feel, but actually it's an order.

Dr. Patel: Actually doing it.

Prabhupāda: Arjuna did not feel; he took order to kill. Not that you manufacture your idea. No. That is not. You take order directly and then do it; otherwise you'll be responsible. Therefore the guru is required to act as representative of Kṛṣṅa. If he says, "Yes, it is all right," then it is all right. Otherwise not. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. Otherwise why guru is required? We must take every moment order from him.

Dr. Patel: Ya bhakti....

Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.23].

[Unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master, all the imports of Vedic knowledge are automatically revealed.]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Kathitā. You cannot manufacture some ideas, that "I am feeling I am doing for Kṛṣṅa." No. That will not be... Direct order. She is going behind?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Today is a full moon day, and the full tide came at twelve o'clock by night. So after eight o'clock there is a full reverse of it, what do you call it?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Low tide.

Dr. Patel: Low tide. Yes. [Hindi to passerby] [break]

Prabhupāda: Garuḍa. He is perfect vegetarian. You know what is his food? Snakes. [Dr. Patel laughs] And he is carrying the Lord. It is a devotee, you see? He is not vegetarian. And how powerful he is that one sparrow, a small bird, lost his egg. The samudra took it away. And he decided, "I shall dry this samudra." So he began to pick up some water. So Nārada Muni was passing. So he asked, "What you are doing?" And "Sir, yes, the samudra has taken my egg, so I shall dry it up." So he said, "But how you can do it? You are so small. You just pray to your head. You are bird, and he is the head of the birds. You just pray to Garuḍa. He can do it." So he prayed Garuḍa, and Garuḍa came and asked samudra, "Immediately deliver; otherwise I shall take step." Immediately it was delivered. Such powerful. Yes. And he was not a vegetarian. [Hindi with Dr. Patel] You become Kṛṣṅa conscious. That is the... [Hindi with Dr. Patel] [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. Jaya. Thank you very much. Namaskāra. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṅa. Real culture is how to become Kṛṣṅa conscious. [Hindi] ...no illicit sex, no gambling, automatically. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṅais tatra samā... [SB 5.18.12].

[All the demigods and their exalted qualities, such as religion, knowledge and renunciation, become manifest in the body of one who has developed unalloyed devotion for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva. On the other hand, a person devoid of devotional service and engaged in material activities has no good qualities. Even if he is adept at the practice of mystic yoga or the honest endeavor of maintaining his family and relatives, he must be driven by his own mental speculations and must engage in the service of the Lord's external energy. How can there be any good qualities in such a man?]

If you simply turn these people to Kṛṣṅa consciousness, all good qualities will come automatically. All good qualities. That is wanted. And we are practically seeing that. Simply by becoming Kṛṣṅa conscious, lover of Kṛṣṅa, they are becoming qualified. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṅā manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12].

There is no good qualification for a nondevotee. He'll simply act on mental speculation, that's all. It has no value.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Sometimes people are amazed that we've given up such sinful activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they should be amazed, because they are mental speculators.

Dr. Patel: You mean unconditional surrender.

Prabhupāda: And here are the surrendered souls. Therefore Kṛṣṅa says, api cet sudurācāro. "Even they have got some bad symptoms," bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, "but if he is fully Kṛṣṅa conscious," sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg 9.30],

[Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated.]

"he is sādhu." So if we want to make the whole world sādhu, perfect human being, then we have to push on this movement without any hesitation. All people will be sādhu, and then there will be peace and prosperity.

Dr. Patel: You mean bring about the spiritual communism of Kṛṣṅa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: That is real com... Everything belongs to Kṛṣṅa. They are stating, "Everything belongs to the state." Why you are limiting? State is limited. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṅa. Then it is perfect communism.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: In the Bible it says, "On earth as it is in heaven."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: In the Bible it says, "On earth as it is in heaven," that the life on earth should be also under the domain of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: But there is no program how to actually do that.

Prabhupāda: No, program is there. Kṛṣṅa is speaking, "Do this program, execute," man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad... [Bg 18.65].

[Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.]

Program is there, but rascal will not take it. There is no difficulty.

Dr. Patel: The Christian prayers are also the self-surrender.

Prabhupāda: Any prayer. If we become God conscious...

Dr. Patel: "Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come."

Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. And without God consciousness there is no qualification. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṅāḥ. There cannot be any good qualities. [break]

Dr. Patel: Then His kingdom can come on earth; not otherwise.

Prabhupāda: No, no. If one man becomes Kṛṣṅa conscious, he can deliver many millions. Not expected... You cannot expect all to become, but if one man is there, Kṛṣṅa conscious, he can deliver. [break] Kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścid... [Bg 7.3].

[Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.]

So it is not so easy thing, but if there is one Kṛṣṅa conscious person, he can deliver many millions.

[break] ...ti śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate [Bg 3.21].

[Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues.]

There must be one śreṣṭha, ideal man, and then everyone will follow. And there is no śreṣṭha. That is the difficulty.

Dr. Patel: Śreṣṭha is only God. Śrī iṣṭha means śreṣṭha, sir. The śrī iṣṭha is only...

Prabhupāda: Yes, śreṣṭha, but one who follows Him, he is also śreṣṭha.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Mahat-sevām.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ [SB 5.5.2].

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: "By associating with devotees..."

Prabhupāda: Tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgam. Tamo-dvāram, the path of darkness, if they associate with yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgam.

Dr. Patel: There is sat-saṅga sadācāraṁ nirāvinam.[?] These three qualities come to men, sir.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sat-saṅga means you have to associate with sat, devotees. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṅa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ [SB 3.25.25].

[In the association of pure devotees, discussion of the pastimes and activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very pleasing and satisfying to the ear and the heart. By cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. Then real devotion and devotional service begin.]

If you associate with sat-saṅga, then you'll gradually relish Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Otherwise not.

Dr. Patel: Just like Nārada Muni, in his previous...

Prabhupāda: Yes, anyone. Anyone. It is open to everyone. So therefore we are trying to open centers all parts of the world, to give them chance of sat-saṅga, so that gradually they will become perfect. And that is happening actually. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never said that you find out some first-class men. No. He said, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṅa [Cc Madhya 7.128].

[Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa as they are given in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.]

It is not necessary that you have to find out some qualified person. Anyone. Simply instruct him what Kṛṣṅa has said, that's all. Yāre dekha tāre kaha. There is no question of selecting. Why selection? All are fallen. The so-called gentleman, he is also fallen.

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ [Bg 7.15]

[Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me.]

As soon as you see he is not Kṛṣṅa conscious, he is within these four groups: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayā... Immediately conclude.

Dr. Patel: Sir, duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, all are māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: All of them are māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ.

Prabhupāda: No, no, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ.

Dr. Patel: They, all of them, all the three previous also.

Prabhupāda: So he may say that "I have passed B.A., M.A., Ph.D., D.H.C.," and "Whether you are Kṛṣṅa conscious?" "No, sir." "Then you are a fool, rascal."

Dr. Patel: [laughs] These B.A., M.A., are māyā degrees.

Prabhupāda: This preaching is done by Śyāmasundara's little daughter, five years, six years. She goes to a gentleman, "Do you know Kṛṣṅa?" So he says, "No, I do not know." "The Supreme Personality of Godhead." Just see. This is preaching. A child can do this preaching work. She has learned from us, and she is convinced that Kṛṣṅa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and she goes to anyone, "Do you know who is Kṛṣṅa?" He says, "No, I do not know." "The Supreme Personality." This is preaching. Then he is a good preacher. That's all. The rascal does not know Kṛṣṅa. He gets at least some information, "Here is Kṛṣṅa." And on this basis our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, Ph.D.... You have read that book? It is first class. The scientist, the so-called scientist, unless he is insane, he cannot say that there is no God. He has written so nice, from scientific.

Dr. Patel: But the real scientists are also God conscious.

Prabhupāda: That is all right. He is real scientist.

Dr. Patel: You have been unfortunately against them, but think of Albert Einstein. He was totally God conscious throughout his life.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he is all right, but mostly they say, "What is the use of God? Now science, everything science." They say like that.

Dr. Patel: You have been very harsh to the scientists.

Prabhupāda: They are misleading. These rascals are misleading. That is the way.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: He was very God conscious when he made the atomic bomb.

Dr. Patel: How many of us are scientists here? He might help you also.

Prabhupāda: We know real scientist because we know the biggest scientist, Kṛṣṅa. Therefore we are scientists. Without Him we don't claim to be scientists—fools, rascals. Ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tathā kim [Nārada Pañcarātra].

[If one worships Lord Kṛṣṅa and considers Him the goal of life, then there is no need to execute severe types of austerity. And, if after executing all kinds of tapasya, one cannot reach Kṛṣṅa, then all his tapasya has no value, for without Kṛṣṅa consciousness different types of austerities are wasted labor.]

He is everything. He doesn't require to. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati [Muṅḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3].

[If one can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the controller of all controllers, one can understand everything else.]

If you simply understand Kṛṣṅa, then you become scientist, philosopher. And I was never a scientist, so we challenge the scientists, and I have produced this scientist to challenge them. But I was never a scientist. That book is actually revolutionary amongst the scientists. Scientific Basis, you have read that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Yes, I have read it.

Prabhupāda: Very nicely he has written, very, very nicely, from all scientific... He has challenged the scientists. He has clearly declared, "Darwin is wrong, and scientists, they do not know."

Dr. Patel: Now the modern scientists from Russia, they say, the [indistinct], that there is life on other stars, in other planets.

Prabhupāda: Not only that, they are interested in reading our books. We have received letter. We are sending representative.

Dr. Patel: Their communism is lost now, another ten years.

Prabhupāda: No, communism is lost, not. We do not say that you stop anything, but you make the center Kṛṣṅa. Otherwise it is zero. Zero, if you increase the number of zero, it is always zero. But put Kṛṣṅa or one by the side of zero, it becomes ten, hundred, thousand, lakhs.

Dr. Patel: Millions.

Prabhupāda: So we... Our propaganda is bring Kṛṣṅa; then your zeros will be valued. Otherwise you are zeros.

Dr. Patel: Sir, they were saying that religion is an opium.

Prabhupāda: Yes, opium is very good sometimes. He is right. Tincture opium. Yes. Yes. All the drugs are used. You know very well.

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, sir. In heart attack we give that first.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So opium is poison undoubtedly, but if it is in the hand of physician, it is nectarine. It can save the life. Whatever God has created, it has got some use. One must know. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṅa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255].

[When one is not attached to anything but at the same time accepts everything in relation to Kṛṣṅa, one is rightly situated above possessiveness. On the other hand, one who rejects everything without knowledge of its relationship to Kṛṣṅa is not as complete in his renunciation.]

That is wanted.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Marx's idea was that instead of trying to improve the condition of life, people would simply go to the church or like this and worship and accept their miserable condition of life without any material progress.

Prabhupāda: No, they do not know.

Dr. Patel: It is abstract materialism, sir.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Because the very theory of dialectical materialism is against the tenets of the religious teachings of sanātana-dharma.

Prabhupāda: No, that...

Dr. Patel: The spirit is more important than material.

Prabhupāda: No, their teaching is to become some strong atheist, because religion has been exploited by the so-called religious leaders. That is the difficulty. So they have become atheist.

Dr. Patel: Unless they change their very principle on which they are working. That is why I say we must spread the spiritual communism, sir, or Kṛṣṅa consciousness. That is the only way. The other day I talked about the dialectical materialism. That is the crux of the whole communism. You know it.

Prabhupāda: The communism will be immediately perfect as soon as it is connected with Kṛṣṅa.

Dr. Patel: But that is, sir... I mean, our sanātana-dharma is spiritual communism. That is what we actually try to preach them.

Prabhupāda: But you have lost it. You have lost it.

Dr. Patel: Yes, we have lost. That is right. And we are gaining it again. The heaven is lost; heaven may be regained. [laughs] What is that, Milton's...?

Prabhupāda: "Paradise..."

Dr. Patel: "Paradise Lost and Gained."

Prabhupāda: If you have lost Kṛṣṅa, that is paradise lost.

Dr. Patel: Paradise lost, that is. My paradise, everything, is lost.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] And this night I have explained, chanting outside the temple and chanting in the temple, it increases the value thousand times. That I have explained, this evening, er, this last night.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Chanting in the temple increases the...?

Prabhupāda: Value.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: The value.

Prabhupāda: Potency, thousand times. Otherwise, why they are going to the Vṛndāvana? [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. Jaya.

Dr. Patel: Sir, what is the difference between mānasī chanting and chanting...

Prabhupāda: No, mānasī chanting, that is smaraṅa. That is another thing. But chanting means the tongue must work. That is real chanting.

Dr. Patel: But if only tongue works and the mind does not work, it has no value.

Prabhupāda: So mind will... You chant loudly, "Hare Kṛṣṅa, Hare Kṛṣṅa"; the mind will come.

Dr. Patel: This mind, buddhi, and the jīva in it, all the three must carry on...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then it is real chanting.

Dr. Patel: ...with the chanting.

Prabhupāda: You have to practice. You have to practice. Not all of a sudden these three things can be combined so you can become... It requires practice. Jaya. Abhyāsa-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā [Bg 8.8].

[He who meditates on the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his mind constantly engaged in remembering Me, undeviated from the path, he, O Pārtha [Arjuna], is sure to reach Me.]

You have to practice. Your mind cannot go outside. Then it will be... You have to become the master of your mind. You cannot be dictated by the mind. Then you are victim. There is a verse that "The mind is friend, and mind is enemy. One who can dictate the mind, his mind is friend. And one who is dictated by the mind, his mind is enemy." So we have to learn how to dictate, control the mind. And that is yoga system. Yoga indriya-saṁyama.

Dr. Patel: Sir, greatest yoga...

Prabhupāda: Greatest yoga is devotee.

Dr. Patel: ...to join your mind with God, with Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. If one's mind is always engaged in Kṛṣṅa, then he is the greatest, biggest yogī.

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ sa me yuktatamo mataḥ [Bg 6.47]

[And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.]

That is first-class yoga. [break] ...means keep them always engaged in Kṛṣṅa's activities, mind. That is wanted.

Dr. Patel: Indriyāṅi pramāthīni haranti prasabhaṁ manaḥ [Bg 2.60].

[The senses are so strong and impetuous, O Arjuna, that they forcibly carry away the mind even of a man of discrimination who is endeavoring to control them.]

Prabhupāda: Yes, if your indriyas are engaged in Kṛṣṅa's activities, they are no more pramāthīni; they are controlled. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam, hṛṣīkeṅa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanam [Cc Madhya 19.170].

[Bhakti, or devotional service, means engaging all our senses in the service of the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all the senses. When the spirit soul renders service unto the Supreme, there are two side effects. One is freed from all material designations, and one’s senses are purified simply by being employed in the service of the Lord.]

When your indriyas are purified, then it will be only engaged in hṛṣīkeṅa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanam. That is bhakti.

Dr. Patel: Rasa-varjaṁ raso 'py asya paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg 2.59].

[The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness.]

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Unless you have complete, I mean, God consciousness, paraṁ dṛṣṭvā, till then, the rasa does not go, the very sting of your indriyas. So it becomes sort of a vicious circle, sir, and it becomes very difficult to vacate from that today.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛṣīkeṅa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc Madhya 19.170].

Dr. Patel: By bhakti you can break.

Prabhupāda: Bhakti means when you engage all your senses in the service of Hṛṣīkeśa. That is bhakti. But that we cannot. We say, "Oh, I have got this duty, I have got that duty," not cent per cent engaged.

Dr. Patel: Ananya-bhakti.

Prabhupāda: Ananya, that is wanted. When cent per cent engaged, that is ananya. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk [Bg 9.30].

[Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated.]

If one takes to that position, ananya-bhāk, then even there is some mistake, even there is some fault, still, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ—he becomes sādhu, immediately. [break]

Dr. Patel: ...for God, for Kṛṣṅa, is bhakti.

Prabhupāda: Yes, under the superior direction, not whimsically.

Dr. Patel: No.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whimsical, you cannot do anything.

Dr. Patel: After complete surrender of the buddhi and mind...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: ...all the actions that are done in the service of God is bhakti...

Prabhupāda: Yes. When...

Dr. Patel: Without surrendering...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: ...the actions are not bhakti.

Prabhupāda: That is the example in the Bhagavad-gītā. When Arjuna saw that "Kṛṣṅa wants it positively. Never mind my..."

Dr. Patel: Then the kariṣye vacanam...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is bhakti. "Never mind I do not agree with Kṛṣṅa, but I see that He wants it, I must do." This is bhakti. Kṛṣṅa should be given preference. That is bhakti, not my whimsical way. That is not bhakti. And because we cannot understand Kṛṣṅa, therefore Kṛṣṅa is giving direction:

tad viddhi praṅipātena paripraśnena sevayā upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ [Bg 4.34]

[Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.]

Go to the person who has seen actually and take information. Simply by reading you will be misleaded. Even persons like Gandhi or Dr. Radhakrishnan, Aurobindo, they were misled because they wanted to manufacture their own meaning. They did not like to act as Kṛṣṅa says.

Passerby: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [to passerby:] Hmm.

[aside:] You are very good devotee. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg 18.65].

[Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.]

So if one offers his namaskāra, that is also taken into account, asset. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt [Bg 2.40].

[In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.]

Dr. Patel: Dharmasya means that dharma which is affixed to find[?] God is dharma.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg 18.55].

[One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.]

You can understand Kṛṣṅa only by bhakti, not by jñāna, yoga, karma. So a little bhakti will help you to make further progress. It is... No... Now, what is that? "It is never lost." What is that verse? Nehābhikrama-nāśo 'sti [Bg 2.40].

Dr. Patel: Nehābhikrama-nāśo 'sti.

Prabhupāda: Nāśo 'sti. So if you do little, it will remain ever, permanently. Then you will make increase. You'll increase again.

Indian man(1): As soon as you start chanting, bhakti starts, and then further development is the result of chanting?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But if we think that "I am chanting. I can do all nonsense," then it is wrong.

Dr. Patel: First of all, sir, it is the "I-ness" which must go. And you must surrender your "I" at the sacred feet of...

Prabhupāda: No, no, "I-ness" is there. If I decide, "I shall not do anything which is not for Kṛṣṅa..."

Dr. Patel: I did not mean that, sir. Your "I-ness" means your ego must be sacrificed at the feet of Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: No, ego is...

Indian man (1): How will it go unless the chanting...

Dr. Patel: Unless you surrender yourself.

Indian man (1): Even the chanting will go with that ego.

Prabhupāda: Ego, ego is there, but false and right.

Dr. Patel: False ego.

Prabhupāda: False ego is that "I am Patel. I am Patel"

Dr. Patel: [Hindi] [laughter]

Prabhupāda: And real ego is "I am Kṛṣṅa's servant."

Indian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is ego.

Indian man (1): Real ego. That is the reason. That is the reason.

Prabhupāda: So long I'll think that "I am Patel. I am master of this man..." [Dr. Patel talking simultaneously] [Hindi] People are, I mean to say, entangled with these all upādhis. So therefore bhakti begins when one is upādhi-less. No more upādhi. Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ [Cc Madhya 13.80].

[I am not a brāhmaṅa, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a vaiśya or a śūdra. Nor am I a brahmacārī, a householder, a vānaprastha or a sannyāsī. I identify Myself only as the servant of the servant of the servant of the lotus feet of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa, the maintainer of the gopīs. He is like an ocean of nectar, and He is the cause of universal transcendental bliss. He is always existing with brilliance.’]

That is real ego.

Dr. Patel: That is complete submersion of your ego. Dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsa. I mean, after śarīra... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...mānasa deha geha, yo kichu mora, arpiluṅ tuwā pade, nanda-kiśora. Nanda-kiśora... [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: You hand over the steer of your "now."

Prabhupāda: Yes. The next line is mārobi rākhobi, yo icchā tohārā. [Hindi] This is surrender.

Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, that reminds me of a story that I read that one man, one English lord, had gone on a pigeon shooting. I told once this story. And he had got lot of pigeons in a gunny bag, and he would allow one pigeon to go, and shoot. One pigeon, instead of flying, fell down at his feet. He could not shoot it. Like that. And this reminds me, this story, always reminds me, this complete surrender. He could not shoot that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: So God will not mara na[?]. He will never maro, cannot maro, because you are at His very feet.

Prabhupāda: God... [Hindi with Indian man] Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13]. He is supplying everything, without any surrendering. [Hindi about goverment and prison house] But that care and outside-the-jail care, there is little difference. In the prison house, even one is very highly qualified, and if he applies for some good post, he will not be given. He'll not be given. But outside the prison? "Yes, you are qualified. Come on." The same government, the same man, but so long one is criminal, there is no consideration. [break]

Dr. Patel: ...that will be a problem.

Prabhupāda: Yes, regularly I get at one o'clock.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: One night Prabhupāda rang the buzzer; it was twelve-thirty.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Prabhupāda was translating.

Prabhupāda: Yes, sometimes earlier.

Dr. Patel: I get up at three-thirty. It is not possible to get up at one o'clock. You must not be sleeping...

Prabhupāda: Not more than three hours. I go to sleep at ten and I get up at one.

Dr. Patel: [Hindi] You get less sleep when... [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, ultimate success is nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau, when you can conquer over nidrā, sleeping; āhāra, eating. Because animal life means āhāra nidrā bhaya maithuna [Hitopadeśa 25].

And spiritual life means you have to conquer over this. That is spiritual life. [Hindi] In spiritual life...

Dr. Patel: You'll have me drinking tea.

Prabhupāda: No, everyone, not you.

Dr. Patel: I don't drink.

Prabhupāda: Spiritual life means... [Hindi] And Dhruva Mahārāja starved six months, a boy of five years old. It is possible. He did not eat. Simply tapasya. Hare Kṛṣṅa. [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: That jñānī, his wife worshiping...

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Job hai visa.

Dr. Patel: No, he had no job. He then searched out a job. In those days, there was no job visas there anywhere.

Prabhupāda: No, during Partition... [break] ...policy to attract these, all the intelligent class of Indian, to India..., er...

Devotee (2): England.

Prabhupāda: There is job visa. They gave indiscriminately job visa, so that India will be vacant of all intelligent persons, and they cannot make... That was the policy.

Dr. Patel: Why they are going space? United States are giving also what we call job visa.

Prabhupāda: No, not only. Everywhere I have seen. One who is qualified, he gets very easily job in Europe or America, high salaried. They get cheaper. Yes. What the Americans will accept for two thousand dollars, Indians will accept at seven hundred dollars.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: When Indians were asked to leave Uganda, the Canadian government offered free passage, but only to persons who had the material qualifications they wanted.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Qualified man is very much welcome in foreign countries. I have seen. In Canada, in America, in England, in Germany—everywhere. Because they have got so many jobs, they require so many qualified men. And here, where is so many jobs?

Dr. Patel: There are so many qualified men, but no jobs.

Prabhupāda: No jobs. [break]

Dr. Patel: You have to employ yourself, sir, here.

Prabhupāda: So many Ph.D.'s, they are loitering. Therefore they become Communists and this, what is called? Naxalites. Educated young boys, they have no job.

Dr. Patel: These two parts of India...

Indian man (1): [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: [Hindi] Bengal and Kerala, they're highly educated communities. They are the, I mean, advanced Communists also, both the countries. In Gujarat there is no communism, though we are educated. [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Indian man (1): [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: Just like assassin is aside. I have seen it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And otherwise you will find Caitanya and other, so many big, big men, Rabindranath Tagore, Surendranath Bannerjee, Vivekananda, and so on, so on.

Indian man (1): Aurobindo was... [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] Aurobindo was condemned to death.

Dr. Patel: His brother.

Prabhupāda: No, no, he.

Dr. Patel: No, sir, I think...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He was condemned to death, then C. R. Das saved him. Then he decided, "This politics has no value. Let me go to Kṛṣṅa consciousness." He dreamt at night, "Why you are bothering with these things?" This is the history. So just after getting off, the judge, immediately left.

Dr. Patel: He came back, Chandannagar, to his place.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: He never came. After svarājya he never came. He was asked...

Prabhupāda: But that is all nonsense.

Dr. Patel: He was requested to come to Delhi, on 15th August '47. He refused.

Prabhupāda: That is... [break]

Dr. Patel: ...find fulfillment there only, God consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42].

[Devotion, direct experience of the Supreme Lord, and detachment from other things—these three occur simultaneously for one who has taken shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, in the same way that pleasure, nourishment and relief from hunger come simultaneously and increasingly, with each bite, for a person engaged in eating.]

This is the sign of bhakti, that he has no more taste in anything material. That is bhakti. [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: And artha.

Prabhupāda: Dharma cannot be. Therefore Bhāgavata said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo [SB 1.1.2].

[Completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially motivated, this Bhāgavata Purāṅa propounds the highest truth, which is understandable by those devotees who are fully pure in heart. The highest truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all. Such truth uproots the threefold miseries. This beautiful Bhāgavatam, compiled by the great sage Vyāsadeva [in his maturity], is sufficient in itself for God realization. What is the need of any other scripture? As soon as one attentively and submissively hears the message of Bhāgavatam, by this culture of knowledge the Supreme Lord is established within his heart.]

Dharmārtha-kāma-mokṣa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90]

[Any person who desires the fruits of the four principles religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and, at the end, liberation, should engage himself in the devotional service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for worship of His lotus feet yields the fulfillment of all of these.]

—these are all cheating. These are all cheating. Yes. Dharma means you become... Generally people go to temple to get some material gains: "O God, give us our daily bread." That is the idea. Dharma is to get some material profit. And why material profit? For sense gratification. Dharma, artha, kāma. And when he's baffled in sense gratification, he wants to become one with God, mokṣa. These are all cheating. Therefore Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. And Śrīdhara Svāmī says, atra mokṣa-vāñchām api nirastam. So long one is stuck up even up to mokṣa-vāñchā, he'll be.... He is in trouble. Therefore Kṛṣṅa, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg 18.66]. Beginning from dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90], you give up everything. Then you'll become purified. Even if you have got mokṣa-vāñchā, then you are in the material world. Yes.

Indian man (3): Then we get parā bhakti.

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says,

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām [Bg 18.54]

[And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.]

When one is actually in liberated position, mokṣa, brahma-bhūtaḥ, from that platform bhakti begins.

Dr. Patel: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. He has realized presence of Kṛṣṅa everywhere.

Prabhupāda: No, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu means he knows that everyone is spirit soul, part and parcel of Kṛṣṅa, and this body is simply external tabernacle. That is samaḥ sarveṣu.

Dr. Patel: Not visualizing the presence of God everywhere?

Prabhupāda: Presence of God is there. When God's part and parcel... [Hindi] This is vision. [Hindi with Indian man] ...ninety million miles away... [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: Sir, this one question is asked by many people, that "How God can have aṁśas? He is perfect. He cannot be divided into multiple parts."

Prabhupāda: He is not divided.

Dr. Patel: That is what I say.

Prabhupāda: No, that is foolishness.

Dr. Patel: That is what I mean to say.

Prabhupāda: No. Just like... It is said, but they are foolish. They cannot understand śāstra. Pūrṅasya pūrṅam ādāya pūrṅam evāvaśiṣyate [Īśo Invocation].

[The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the Complete Whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the Complete Whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance.]

That the rascals, they do not understand. They think materially. Just like this flower. If I take little, little, little, then there is no flower. They are thinking like that. But here is the warning: pūrṅasya pūrṅam... Even the whole flower is taken, still whole.

Dr. Patel: That is God.

Prabhupāda: That is God. They are materially thinking, "If God has bifurcated Himself in so many, everywhere, all-pervading, then where is God?" This is foolishness. That Kṛṣṅa says, that

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ [Bg 9.4]

[By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.]

"Still I am separate." This is wanted. The example is there. Suppose a sunshine is there and throughout the whole universe, and if you say, "Now sun is finished," is sun finished? This is all foolishness. The sun is there; sun-god is there. Still, the sunshine is spread all over the universe.

Dr. Patel: Pūrṅasya pūrṅam ādāya...

Prabhupāda: Pūrṅam ādāya pūrṅam... [Īśo Invocation]

Dr. Patel: ...evāvaśiṣyate.

Prabhupāda: He is distributing. This is material thing. He is distributing full light and full temperature for millions and millions of years, he is still the same. If it is possible for a material thing which is creation of God, how much it is possible for the Supreme? Therefore it is said...

Dr. Patel: Because God is present everywhere by His avyakta-mūrti and He is present in Goloka...

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana.

Dr. Patel: In His original form.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ [Bs 5.37].

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, residing in His own realm, Goloka, with Rādhā, resembling His own spiritual figure, the embodiment of the ecstatic potency possessed of the sixty-four artistic activities, in the company of Her confidantes [sakhīs], embodiments of the extensions of Her bodily form, permeated and vitalized by His ever-blissful spiritual rasa.]

This is God. Not that... [Hindi] That is not God. God is in His apartment, at the same time everywhere. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg 18.61].

[The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.]

That is God. [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: He doesn't understand.

Prabhupāda: No. Mūḍho nābhijānāti [Hindi] Without knowing God, they are becoming God.

Dr. Patel: God has made them mūḍhas by His māyā, sir.

Prabhupāda: No, no. They have become. They don't want to... Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante [Bg 7.15].

[Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me.]

[Hindi] That is in..., insisting. [Hindi] Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg 4.7]. Dharmasya glāniḥ means when the people become mūḍha.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But He comes to give him intelligence, but he will not take it. He wants that "I shall remain a mūḍha." "All right, you remain."

Dr. Patel: Sir, God incarnates for many purposes, not only [indistinct] but for protecting...

Prabhupāda: This is the total... Total purpose is paritrāṅāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg 4.8].

[In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium.]

[Hindi]

Dr. Patel: I am going to ask you a bad question...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: ...that if God wanted to destroy the rascals and mūḍhas, He could have done by His finger.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Why does He come here? He comes here... [Hindi] Am I right?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: It is not only for killing the...

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, how He can give contact? Contact.

Dr. Patel: He could have done it from there only.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] Actually to give him favor.

Dr. Patel: To favor the bhaktas, sir.

Prabhupāda: Not only bhaktas, even abhaktas—by killing them. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Ha. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also favor. [Hindi] ...immediately. Mukti immediately. All the soldiers and kings who saw Kṛṣṅa in the battlefield, they were all muktas immediately. Yes. Because at the time of death they were seeing Kṛṣṅa, so they become all delivered.

Dr. Patel: They got greater benefit than the living people behind. The Pāṅḍavas, they said, that "Those people actually was..., by death, in presence of Kṛṣṅa. They saw their life by..."

Prabhupāda: Svarūpa.

Dr. Patel: Svarūpa.

Prabhupāda: Svarūpeṅa vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6].

[The merging of the living entity, along with his conditional living tendency, with the mystic lying down of the Mahā-Viṣṅu is called the winding up of the cosmic manifestation. Liberation is the permanent situation of the form of the living entity after he gives up the changeable gross and subtle material bodies.]

That is mukti. When one is situated in his own original, constitutional position, that is called mukti. Svarūpeṅa mukti. Muktir hitvānyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṅa vyavasthitiḥ. This is mukti. [end]