Morning Walk

Italian man (1): Well, it is the most satisfying thing I have been reading up to now. I have been searching through the Tibetan Books of the Dead, but it wasn't enough, and this is beyond that. It is really, is complete, you know?

Prabhupāda: In your country people would like it?

Italian man (1): What?

Prabhupāda: In your country, they would like these ideas?

Italian man (1): Oh, yes. Absolutely, absolutely. Yes, this is a... I have such a keen interest in going to see what the situation is, because I haven't been... [break] ...for Venice.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Venice.

Italian man (1): Yes. So it would be so fantastic to present them a platform of religion so lively.

Prabhupāda: It is not religion. Of course, it is religion. But the religion, as it is misunderstood in European countries, that religion is a kind of faith. But it is not like that. It is science. It is fact. Religion, you have got some faith. That may not be right. It may be wrong. Just like the Christian religion, they have got faith in this way, that animal has no soul. Do you know that?

Italian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's not a fact. Do you agree or not?

Italian man (1): I do.

Prabhupāda: Animal also has soul.

Italian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Why do they disagree, that animal has no soul? What is the point? Why do they say?

Italian man (1): Because they don't like to identify themselves with animals. Because if they admit that animals have a soul, then they have to identify..., I mean they are afraid of identifying with animals. They feel they are superior to animals. We are superior to animals, indeed, but...

Prabhupāda: That is by intelligence.

Italian man (1): What?

Prabhupāda: We are superior to animals by superior intelligence, not by... Just like a human child. His father is superior than the child because the father has got superior intelligence, not that the child has no soul. The child talks so many nonsense things, but we take it, "After all, it is child." Nobody cares whether it is symmetrical or not, because his intelligence is not developed. So even the animals have no developed intelligence, that does not mean it has no soul.

Italian man (1): It does.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The evolution of different types of body means evolution of intelligence. Just like a flower: in the bud stage, the flower is there, but the fragrance or the beauty has not yet developed. So unless the things are there, how it can develop? Similarly, the soul is there in every living entity, but according to the development of the body, evolution of the body, the intelligence becomes manifest. Otherwise, what is the meaning of education? Education means to develop the intelligence. That is education.

Italian man (1): Are you thinking of formal education now?

Prabhupāda: Any education. You train a child to the standard of that education and he will develop his intelligence. A child who does not know what is what, the father says, "This is... My dear child, it is watch." Once, twice, thrice, you call, "Watch, watch, watch," he learns, "This is watch."

[aside:] Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṅa. [Hindi to Indians passing]

So one has to awaken the intelligence. So that supreme intelligence is Kṛṣṅa consciousness. When one comes to the point of supreme intelligence, that is called Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Just like a rose flower, when it comes to the full blooming stage, it is very beautiful, fragrant, like that. So when a living entity comes to the understanding of his constitutional position—what he is actually—and acts like that, that is called Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Then it is full development. That is called buddhi-yogam. Buddhi is there, intelligence is there, and when it is fully developed for understanding Kṛṣṅa, that is called buddhi-yogam.

Italian man (1): Buddhi-yogam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddhi-yogam. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is described, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti [Bg 10.10].

[To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.]

Buddhi-yogam means the intelligence, but... [aside:] Don't come near. The intelligence which gets the living entity back to home, back to Godhead. That is called buddhi-yogam. Any yoga system means connecting link with the Supreme. When we speak of buddhi-yogam, that is the ultimate yoga. That is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata antar-ātmanā [Bg 6.47].

[And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.]

All different types of yoga practice, the most important and topmost yoga practice is to think of Kṛṣṅa always within oneself. That is being practiced.

[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. The topmost yoga system.

[japa] [break] You are experienced. Try to understand this philosophy and give it to your country. Your country is a most important country in Europe. Roman civilization.

Italian man (1): Yes. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Greek civilization, Roman civilization is the beginning of European civilization. So your position is very nice.

Italian man (1): Well, yes. When I was a child I was brought up to go to the mass every morning, and I used to answer in Latin, you know, and serve the priest.

Prabhupāda: Oh!

Italian man (1): Yes. Even twice a day until the age of fourteen, and then we went to catechism. And then I left, I left alone, you know, by my own will. [break] It would be fantastic to go back with a background of..., with the knowledge of Kṛṣṅa and talk to them about Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. [break] ...this boy, he is going to develop our Italian center, Rome. [break]

Italian man (1): ...the personal and impersonal features of Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Italian man (1): Kṛṣṅa, being at the same time infinite expansion of energy and also being form, a person. Not a person like us.

Prabhupāda: Yes, person. Originally He is person.

Italian man (1): In the heart, you know.

Prabhupāda: That is another expansion of Kṛṣṅa.

Italian man (1): Another explanation.

Prabhupāda: Another expansion.

Italian man (1): Yes. Another expansion. Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: Localized.

Italian man (1): Oh, localized. I see. I see it. But would you please tell me...

Prabhupāda: Just like the sun or the moon. There is the sun-god or the moon-god within the planet. That is the original. And then the sun globe, it is localized. And then the sunshine and the moonshine.

[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa [Hindi]

[break] ...what is impersonal and personal?

Italian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is that? Repeat it, what I have said.

Italian man (1): This way, if I understand what is personal and impersonal?

Prabhupāda: Yes, what is that personal and impersonal?

Italian man (1): Is that Kṛṣṅa also has a... He's a person. He is not only all-pervading, abstract energy.

Prabhupāda: He is all-pervading.

Italian man (1): Yes, but He also is a person.

Prabhupāda: Not also. He is person. This all-pervasive influence or all-pervasive feature is His expansion of energy. The same example: The sunshine is the expansion of energy of the sun globe, and the sun globe is the place for the sun-god. The sun-god is a person, and sun globe is the place where this sun-god lives, and sunshine is the expansion of the energy of the sun globe. Try to understand it very... Because this question is very complicated. People cannot understand. You try to understand this. God, Kṛṣṅa, is originally a person. Brahmeti bhagavān iti... Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān [SB 1.2.11].

[Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān.]

Just like if you want to see the sun-god, there is a person. His name is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, Vivasvān. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg 4.1].

[The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Ikṣvāku.]

He is a person. Now, you cannot see the person so easily.

Italian man (1): Yes. Exactly. I wanted to ask you about Kṛṣṅa in the heart. Could you tell us something about His physiognomy. His physiognomy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. His physiognomy is sac-cid-ānanda vigraha [Bs 5.1].

[Kṛṣṅa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.]

That we can understand. Sac-cid-ānanda. He is eternal, He is full of knowledge and He is blissful. Sac-cid-ānanda. Your body, my body is just opposite. It is not eternal; it is temporary. And it is full of ignorance. Therefore we require knowledge.

[aside:] Little away, yes.

So this is full of ignorance, and there are so many miseries. So Kṛṣṅa hasn't got a body like this. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. Kṛṣṅa, Your body is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha. So we can distinguish what is Kṛṣṅa's body and what is our body. [break] ...understand. Try to understand, that what is the nature. That is called spiritual body. So we have got also similar body, but very small, very small. That is covered by this material body. And because in the spiritual body I am person, I have got form, therefore the material elements have taken a form. Just like when your coat is made, it is made according to your body. Because you have got hand, so the coat has got a hand. But the hand of the coat is not real. The real hand is within the coat. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg 2.13].

[As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.]

Within. These foolish people, they do not understand. They take, "This is hand. This is hand." He does not know that this hand is artificial, outward. Real hand is within. This is their misconception.

[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Try to understand. These are very important question.

[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Because within the coat the real man is there, therefore the dress has assumed two hands, two legs, one collar, like that. But this is false, like dress. Real... Therefore every living entity has got form. It is not formless. This less-intelligent class of men, because they cannot see the form... It is so small. It is so small that if you divide the top portion of your hair into ten thousand parts...

Italian man (1): Your one hair into ten thousand parts.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Italian man (1): What did you say?

Prabhupāda: The top portion, tip of the hair, the point, you divide into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the form of the soul. It is such minute, small... Because they cannot see, they say it is nirākāra. No, it is not nirākāra. It is there.

Italian man (1): Can I ask you one question?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Italian man (1): When we see Kṛṣṅa in us, in our hearts, the moment Kṛṣṅa comes, the moment put a link with Him, the moment that the link takes place with Kṛṣṅa in our hearts...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṅa is always within your heart.

Italian man (1): Yes. But at the moment that our self, our soul opens itself and succeeds in putting a link... [break] I mean, I'm sorry, I mean...

Prabhupāda: He has this feature.

Italian man (1): It is a matter of words. It is difficult to explain this.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He cannot create God.

Italian man (1): No, of course not.

Prabhupāda: These Māyāvādī philosophers, they create God. Anthropomorphism. What is that anthropomorphism?

Satsvarūpa: To imagine that God has a form. Man imagines God, not that God exists originally, but man imagines God based on his own form.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anthropomorphism it is called. They create a form, but that is not the fact. God has His eternal form. That I explained. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs 5.1].

[Kṛṣṅa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.]

Vigraha means form. And it is sac-cid-ānanda, means eternal, full of knowledge and... Just like Kṛṣṅa is speaking Bhagavad-gītā. People are accepting, because that is real knowledge. And nobody reads other books so carefully. And this Bhagavad-gītā is read all over the world. All big, big scholars, big, big philosophers, theologist, they read, because that is real knowledge. That is the proof. It is real knowledge. Cit. Sac-cit. And one who is giving real knowledge, it is natural conclusion, He has got eternal body. We cannot give real knowledge, because we forget. As we change our body, we forget. Just like at night we dream, but we forget the body, this body. In another body we go to some dreamland. So because we change body, therefore we forget. And because Kṛṣṅa is giving knowledge perfect, past, present and future, therefore it means that He has got eternal body. This is the proof. One should understand everything with logic. Is it not? We forget because we have no eternal body. Last birth, what I was, what you were, we have forgotten, because changed body. Death, death means forgetting. So because Kṛṣṅa is giving perfect knowledge of past, future and present, therefore it is to be understood that He has got eternal body. And eternal body means there is no misery. Misery means janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg 13.9],

[Humility, pridelessness, nonviolence, tolerance, simplicity, approaching a bona fide spiritual master, cleanliness, steadiness and self-control; renunciation of the objects of sense gratification, absence of false ego, the perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease; nonattachment to children, wife, home and the rest, and evenmindedness amid pleasant and unpleasant events; constant and unalloyed devotion to Me, resorting to solitary places, detachment from the general mass of people; accepting the importance of self-realization, and philosophical search for the Absolute Truth—all these I thus declare to be knowledge, and what is contrary to these is ignorance.]

to take birth, to die...

[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa.

...and to suffer from disease, to suffer from old age. These are the miseries. So because Kṛṣṅa hasn't got this temporary body, therefore He is not suffering from these things. Therefore Kṛṣṅa, you will see always, young man. You will never see Kṛṣṅa's picture as old man, because He is eternal body. This is the conclusion.

Italian man (1): In our heart.

Prabhupāda: No, no, heart or not heart. Your heart or not heart, but Kṛṣṅa's position is like that. He has got eternal body. He is blissful, because there is no miseries. Temporary body means there is misery, so many miseries. At least these four miseries: birth, death, old age and disease. So eternal body has no such miseries. Therefore it is blissful. Therefore it is full of knowledge. As soon as you get your eternal body, which is already there within this temporary body, then you also become blissful and full of knowledge. That is oneness: one in quality. Kṛṣṅa has got this body, eternal, blissful, full of knowledge. So when you get this body, then you are becoming equal in quality, not in quantity. Your question is answered?

Italian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: If you have got any doubt, you can still ask.

Italian man (1): Maybe... May I emphasize... [break]

Prabhupāda: We have got your photo. So... But the difference is that your photograph and you are different. Because the photograph is of the temporary body, therefore it is not absolute. But Kṛṣṅa, being everything, Kṛṣṅa's photograph is also Kṛṣṅa.

Italian man (1): Yes, okay, thank you. Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Is it all right?

Italian man (1): Yes, thank you.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa is everything. So His photograph is also Kṛṣṅa. It is not that foolish people, they worship a photograph. No. It is reality.

Italian man (1): It is...?

Prabhupāda: It is reality. Yes. [break] Kṛṣṅa is everything. [to devotees:] Can you explain? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Who can explain? Explain, yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: Kṛṣṅa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi... [Bg 7.8].

[O son of Kuntī [Arjuna], I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable om in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and ability in man.]

[break]

Prabhupāda: Bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ [Bg 7.4].

[Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—altogether these eight comprise My separated material energies.]

Because this material world means these elements—this earth, this water, then fire, then air, then sky—five elements. So what are these elements? These elements are Kṛṣṅa's energy. Bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ.

Italian man (1): Material energy.

Prabhupāda: Material energy, yes. And the living entities, they are also energy, spiritual energy. Two energies. Two energies means just like fire. Fire has got two energies: heat and light. Similarly, the whole creation is combination of Kṛṣṅa's energy. Therefore everything is Kṛṣṅa. Is it not? Yes. Just like you take milk. From milk you prepare so many milk preparation. You prepare yogurt, you prepare ghee, you prepare rasagullā, you prepare burfī and so many others. But therefore, actually, all of them are milk. This is the... Under different combination only. In the milk, if you put some sour thing, it becomes yogurt. But it is milk. And that sour thing also, which is put into the milk, that is also Kṛṣṅa. [japa]

[break] Why He is originally person, try to understand. And all these energies are imperson. Just like I am a person, you are a person. But when I... My temperature is imperson. Is it not? I have got temperature, if you put thermometer, that is imperson. So person is the origin, and the impersonal temperature is the energy.

Italian man (1): I see. Yes, yes. And the difference between the personalist..., I mean the..., and the personalist is that the impersonalist does not believe...

Prabhupāda: No, no, believe... You don't believe or not believe, it doesn't matter. We are explaining science. If somebody says, "No, there is no temperature," that is foolishness. There is temperature. How can you say there is no temperature? There is temperature. Even you go to the water, there is temperature. Everywhere. Because the elements are all there, bhūmir āpo analo vāyu... The beginning is the ākāśa, ether. The ether is in the air, the air is in the fire, the fire is in the water, and the earth is in the water. This is..., this way. And in the earth you will find everything.

Italian man (1): The earth..., the hearth?

Prabhupāda: The earth. Earth. You will find air, ether, water, fire, everything. And the final state, it is ether only, originally. So suppose I am breathing. It is ethereal. But so many things are coming. If I am contaminated, by touching my breathing, you will be contaminated, and it will come out as disease.

Italian man (1): Can you repeat, please?

Prabhupāda: Just like this breathing is ethereal, but if there is potency... There is potency. So by being contaminated by my breathing, you become contaminated, and it comes out again as disease. So the ethereal composition is the origin. Then gradually it develops: ether into air, air into fire, fire into water, water into earth. [break] ...consideration of the gross thing. How the gross thing coming into existence from subtle thing, they do not know it. That is less intelligent. They cannot think very, what is called, minutely.

Italian man (1): And beyond ether?

Prabhupāda: Just like the same example: the breathing is coming from a person. So breathing is impersonal, but it is coming from the person. Similarly, originally God is person. In the Bhagavad-gītā everything is explained, "From Me. I am the origin of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg 10.8].

[I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.]

This is... This has to be..., how everything is coming from Him. And if we understand how it is coming, then we have to accept that it is coming from the person, not from the imperson. Imperson is secondary manifestation of the person. Just like the fire. Fire is the origin. It has got a form. But secondary manifestation of the fire is heat and light. Not that...

Italian man (1): The second manifestation of fire is heat and light?

Prabhupāda: ...is heat and light.

Italian man (1): And fire is...?

Prabhupāda: Fire is the origin. That is form. That is not formless. Heat may be formless. Light may be formless. But fire is not formless. [aside:] Thik hai? If you have got intelligence, then from the formless, you can approach the form. Just like the sunshine, shining is formless. If you have got form, go to the sun planet. And if you go to the sun planet, you will see the sun-god. But they cannot go. They cannot appreciate that there is a person who is known as sun-god. But it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham... The name is also given, what is the name of that person. [break]

Indian man (1): ...planet, recently what we read from the papers. There is so... So far, nobody tells us that there is a moon-god over there. Although they have gone to particular one place only, or two, three places only, not the whole one, but still, nobody comes from. They say nobody is there and...

Prabhupāda: But these bodies are imperfect. They are not perfect. The moon may not be exposed to them, these rascals. Because a king is not exposed to the ordinary man. Unless one is fit to see him, king is not exposed. That does not mean there is no king. If some rascal says, "There is no president, there is no king," that is his rascaldom, not that there is no king, no president. He cannot see. He has not that qualification. Is that correct?

Indian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. One who has no qualification, he says, because he could not see somebody, he sees, "There is no such existence." Is that good conclusion?

Indian man (1): Good psychology.

Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. He is not fit to be seen by the great personality. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg 7.25].

[I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yoga-māyā]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible.]

You cannot see the sun-god. Does it mean there is no sun-god? What is the value of your eyes? It is imperfect. You are seeing the sun just like a disc, but it is fourteen hundred thousands of times bigger than this earth. Can you see it? Then what is the power of your seeing? Whatever you are seeing, that is defective. So don't be proud of seeing. What is your eyes? What is the value of your eyes? You cannot see even the eyelid. Can you see the eyelid, although it is attached to your eyeball? So what is the power? Why you are so much proud of seeing? First of all, understand that "I am so defective, I cannot see perfectly, properly." And you want to see God with these defective eyes?

Indian man (2): Arjuna also says that he cannot see God. He saw the light only.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was speaking with Kṛṣṅa. Still, he said that "I cannot see You." That is a fact. [break] Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva vilokayanti [Bs 5.38].

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is Śyāmasundara, Kṛṣṅa Himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love.]

If you have got qualified eyes, you can see Kṛṣṅa always, twenty-four hours. So we have to qualify, purify. Sarvopādhi-vinir... [Cc Madhya 19.170].

[Bhakti, or devotional service, means engaging all our senses in the service of the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all the senses. When the spirit soul renders service unto the Supreme, there are two side effects. One is freed from all material designations, and one’s senses are purified simply by being employed in the service of the Lord.]

You are seeing. You are trying to see God as American, as Indian, as this and that. With that eyes you cannot see. When you are neither American nor Indian nor brāhmaṅa nor śūdra, you are pure spirit, then you can see. They want to remain with this designation body and want to see God. That is not possible. To enter fire you have to become fire. Otherwise, it will be not possible to enter fire. So without Brahman realization, you cannot understand what is Kṛṣṅa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg 18.54].

[And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.]

[break] ...water is the same. Quality, it is same. It is salt, salty. And the whole ocean is also salty. That is tat tvam asi. "You are also salty," if I say. If the drop of the water, I say that "This is also salty," that is tat tvam asi. Not that he has become the whole sea. This is rascaldom. [break] ...God create another ocean in the sky. Then you are God. When there is some tooth pain, you go to the doctor, and you are God. Just see how much nonsense they are. As soon as there is tooth pain, "Oh, oh. Just now I am not God, I am patient." So these things are going on. I have seen so many gods. I have seen one that Dr. Misra. When he had a toothache, "Ohhh, oh." You see? [break] ...cheap philosophy, by misunderstanding the whole world has become atheist, all rascals. Atheist means rascal number one, mūḍhāḥ, āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. As soon as one becomes atheist, he is rascal number one. [break]

Indian man (1): ...just in the beginning, when they are in the [indistinct] world, even the atheists...

Prabhupāda: Atheists, they say that "We have not seen God."

Indian man (1): But they need support of God in the beginning. Without that, they cannot go to that transc...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is always. Therefore they are fools. They cannot become atheists. If somebody says that "I do not believe in God," this saying will be stopped immediately by God. He cannot do anything. And that is God. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg 10.34].

[I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to be. Among women I am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, faithfulness and patience.]

When God comes as mṛtyuḥ, then all his talking is finished. "I don't believe in God. There is no God," finished. So control that death. Because death takes all your possession, your talking, your riches, your body—everything will be taken away. Now, why do you allow to..., death, overtake you? Why do you allow? If you are God, check it.

Indian man (2): Yes, yes, don't allow your death to come.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you are God.

Indian man (1): This body is supposed to die.

Prabhupāda: Why supposed? Why supposed? That is ignorance, "supposed." Because he cannot do anything, he suppose... Why?

Indian man (1): Of course, we say this body is not say absolute or permanent.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Permanent, but who has made it this? You have not made. You make a permanent body. Then you are God.

Indian man (1): That nobody can do.

Prabhupāda: Therefore he is not God. That is existence of God. You cannot do because there is higher power controlling you. God means controller. He is controlling you. You cannot do that. Therefore you are not God. There is superior controller, who does not allow to do this. You have to abide by the laws. This is commonsense reasoning. If you are being controlled, how you become God? God means the supreme controller. Is it all right? So long you will be controlled, you are not God. But where is the position that you are no more controlled? That position is never.

Indian man (1): It is human nature, no doubt about it. Now everybody is...

Prabhupāda: Nature? What is this nature? Nature is an agency of God by which He controls. That is nature, that "I have got a stick. I can beat you. But the stick is not beating; I am beating." This is knowledge. And the rascal will think, "The stick is beating." What stick has got power?

Indian man (1): Somebody is there.

Prabhupāda: Yeah, "Behind the stick there is my hand."

Indian man (2): There is a medium.

Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayādhyakṣena prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg 9.10]:

[This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.]

"Under My control the nature is working." But these rascals, they do not know. They think nature is working automatically. Even they accept, but they cannot control nature. Now, how he is God? You control nature. Suppose behind the nature there is no God. All right, you control the nature. Suppose behind this stick my hand is working. You cannot see my hand. But the control this stick, which is beating you, which is kicking you, control that. So you cannot control anything, and you have become God. So 'ham, tat tvam asi. These slogans misused, simply misused.

Indian man (2): They say just something like a small degree to the people, all right, those who are coming...

Prabhupāda: Childish, childish. Therefore they have been described as mūḍhā, mūḍhā. Mūḍhā means a child; they are foolish. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhāmāḥ [Bg 7.15].

[Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me.]

[break] ...nābhijānāti prakṛtiṁ mohiniṁ śritaḥ. Prakṛtiṁ mohiniṁ śritaḥ. What is that verse?

Devotee: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ...

Prabhupāda: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto mama-bhūta maheśvaram. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg 9.11].

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

[break] ...says, bhūmir āpo analo vayuḥ. This water is Kṛṣṅa's energy. So how can you refute it? Kṛṣṅa says, "It is My energy."

Indian man (3): It is somebody's energy. That is definite. Because somebody is controlling it.

Prabhupāda: No, no, not controlling.

Indian man (1): You have to believe or imagine some entity. It may be Kṛṣṅa or it...

Prabhupāda: No, no, how can you disbelieve? First of all, thing is how can you disbelieve? Believe or not believe, that is another question. How you can... This water has come from some source. So what is that source?

Yaśomatīnandana: By our logical research we can come to Bhagavad-gītā and find out Kṛṣṅa is the only person in the whole world who says that "This comes from Me."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Water comes from your body, perspiration. So why not from Kṛṣṅa's body? Simple reasoning. [break] ...ānanda-vigrahaḥ. [break] ...tap produces water. An inanimate object, a small material thing, it produces water. And Kṛṣṅa cannot produce such water? [break] ...potency. They are explained. But because we do not go to the right teacher, we do not understand. That is the difficulty.

Indian man (1): But the teachers give different interpretation of the same thing.

Prabhupāda: No. The same thing means he is a rascal teacher. He is not teacher; he is cheater. When a cheater takes the place of a teacher, he explains differently. And when a teacher is there, he will explain rightly. Where is the difficulty? I have several times said that "Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gītā?" There is not a single line which is very difficult to understand. Just like Kṛṣṅa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg 4.1]:

[The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Ikṣvāku.]

"I first of all said this philosophy to Vivasvan, the sun-god." So where is the difficulty to understand this line? Where is the difficulty?

Indian man (1): No difficulty in understanding. Interpretation...

Prabhupāda: Why they should interpret? Interpretation is required when there is no understanding. If the matter is clearly understood, why interpretation? This is rascaldom. Everyone understands this is called glass. And where is the use of interpretation? Here is a glass. Everyone can understand. Or spectacle. "No, no. This is meaning this." Why? If the thing is clearly understood, there is no question of interpretation. You cannot give. Suppose if you go to the court, if the thing is clearly understood that "This man has committed this criminal activity. He should be punished," so where is the difficulty? No. If somebody... "No, no. This 'He should be punished' means not now; after three hundred years he should be punished." Is that interpretation? He should be punished immediately. That's all.

Indian man (1): It's not like that. The material thing we can see from our...

Prabhupāda: You are material, you are not spiritual. You are a material fool. Why do you interpret foolishly?

Indian man (1): There's no doubt about it.

Indian man (2): According to their brain and knowledge, they must have...

Prabhupāda: That means rubbish brain, rubbish brain. You go, interpret and change the law. You go in the law court and you interpret in your own way. Can you interpret in the law court, "Sir, I have got a different interpretation"? "Get out. Get out, rascal, from this..."

Indian man (1): No, no. Even the judges in the Supreme Court in India, they go after the interpretations, they go and they become also one with the...

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is extraordinarily. When the meaning of the law is not very clear, that takes place. But when the thing is very clear, there is no question of interpretation.

Indian man (1): Why there is a fight? Because both the things, both the lawyers, they take it in different way and so they come to the judge.

Prabhupāda: That's right. But it is not different in such a way that you call a spectacle a something else.

Indian man (4): Bhagavad-gītā is really...

Yaśomatīnandana: Judge decides who is the right one.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but it said in the Bhagavad-gītā clearly. It is said clearly, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān: "I told this philosophy to Vivasvān." Where is the difficulty to understand? Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg 1.1]:

[Dhṛtarāṣṭra said: O Sañjaya, after assembling in the place of pilgrimage at Kurukṣetra, what did my sons and the sons of Pāṅḍu do, being desirous to fight?]

"In the dharma-kṣetre, kuru-kṣetre, two parties willing to fight, they assembled." Where is the difficulty to understand? Why these rascals should interpret in a different way?

Indian man (1): These are all... They are not interpreting that particular word.

Prabhupāda: They are doing.

Yaśomatīnandana: "There is nothing like Kurukṣetra," they say.

Indian man (4): That is another group of people, their own brain creation. That we should not...

Prabhupāda: What right you have got to interpret?

Indian man (1): Whatever it is they are saying, material thing we can, we should not interpret, and we cannot.

Prabhupāda: But you are, after all, material. You are not spiritual. In order to get you on the spiritual platform, things are being spoken by Kṛṣṅa.

Indian man (4): And to understand something we must have...

Prabhupāda: How you become all of a sudden spiritual? What is that spiritual? You do not understand what is spiritual, and you say, "It is spiritual."

Indian man (1): Well, something which we cannot see by our own eyes, something which we cannot...

Prabhupāda: Then why do you interpret if you cannot see with your own eyes? You are blind. Why should you interpret? A blind man is interpreting? What is this nonsense?

Yaśomatīnandana: It is just like Kṛṣṅa says, "I am here."

Prabhupāda: The blind man is just, "Oh, the elephant is big pillar."

Indian man (1): Same thing will say that elephant is only trunk.

Prabhupāda: That's it. This kind of interpretation, what is the meaning?

Indian man (1): They don't have that complete view of the whole.

Prabhupāda: If you are blind, you accept that "I am blind man. I cannot study what is this elephant," that is another thing. That is good. And if you are blind and by blind eyes you, "Oh, elephant is a pillar..."

Indian man (1): Some other blind will say the trunk...

Prabhupāda: So the blind man has no right to interpret. That is the point. Blind man... You are blind man. Remain as a blind man. Don't talk nonsense. That is our protest. Why should you interpret? You are blind man.

Indian man (4): They should not try to, just around, create the meaning of it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how do we tell the difference between the blind man and one who can see?

Prabhupāda: Anyone can understand. Any foolish man can understand, "Here is a blind man; here is a man with eyes." It is not very difficult. Why do you question this? One cannot see, that is blind man. Everyone knows it.

Yaśomatīnandana: Their interpretation is just opposing Kṛṣṅa. Kṛṣṅa says, "I am here."

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Indian man (1): They have no opposition.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the main point. That is the main point, the Kaṁsa, to kill Kṛṣṅa. "Let Kṛṣṅa come out and I shall kill Him immediately." The Kaṁsa philosophy. All these rascals, they don't give any importance to Kṛṣṅa. All this interpretation.

Indian man (1): Śaṅkarācārya has written the Kṛṣṅa-aṣṭakam.

Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya is not blind man. But those who are rascals, blind, why do they interpret? They should not interpret. [break]

Italian man (4): ...mentioned Kṛṣṅa. This is...

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is coming from Europe. Jaya. He's also. Never mentioned. The only policy is how to kill Kṛṣṅa.

Italian man (1): These important writers who have been read throughout Europe, France and England, who has no importance for the moment, they have never tried to give a lifely idea of Kṛṣṅa, the pastimes and the youthfulness, and the lifeliness of this is not given. And they will take... Yes, that's it. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Here is a foreign reader. He says.

Indian man (1): Which book you have read?

Italian man (1): Well, I have read every book that can be available.

Indian man (1): Have you read Rādhākrishnan on Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: He is first-class impersonalist. He is a first-class blind man. First-class blind man.

Indian man (1): But still, he appreciates Kṛṣṅa. He has never told any...

Prabhupāda: How can you...

Indian man (1): Well, I read it, I studied it.

Prabhupāda: No, no. After all, he's a brāhmaṅa, Hindu brāhmaṅa. How he can defy Kṛṣṅa? That is not possible.

Indian man (1): On the contrary, he is also a bhakta of Kṛṣṅa, but he says that after bhakti, devotion...

Indian man (5): Who?

Indian man (1): Dr. Radhakrishnan.

Indian man (5): President of India.

Devotee: He is not known in Europe. [break]

Indian man (4): Our book is there in London, not Vivekananda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. His books are rejected.

Indian man (1): No, he has written from a different point of view.

Prabhupāda: No. Why? What right? That is the...

Indian man (1): You are putting your idea. That is a bad decision.

Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Why he should put a different point of view? Just like Radhakrishnan says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī [Bg 18.65],

[Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.]

"It is not to Kṛṣṅa the person." This is, how much rascaldom. Kṛṣṅa says, "You become My devotee," and he interprets, "It is not to Kṛṣṅa the person." Just see.

Indian man: Kṛṣṅa says, "Surrender everything." That's all. And they say, "No..."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa says that "You surrender." He says, "It is not to Kṛṣṅa." Just see how much rascal he is. And if I say, then people will be angry. If I say "rascal, rascal," then people will be angry.

Italian man (1): So you actually mean to say that these people who have been writing from..., taking especially from Bhagavad-gītā and explaining Bhagavad-gītā and some of other Vedic scriptures, do you think that the fact that they didn't mention...? I have been thinking that maybe they have not talking about..., they don't talk about Kṛṣṅa, just to say maybe they might have thought, "Well, people don't know who is Kṛṣṅa, and therefore I only say God."

Prabhupāda: Why? Kṛṣṅa is there.

Italian man (1): Or do you think that there was a purpose in their mind?

Prabhupāda: Purpose, yes: not to give importance to Kṛṣṅa. That is going on.

Italian man (2): And on themself only.

Indian man (1): Not self only.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that rascaldom is going on. And our Society is protesting. Therefore we are enemy of everyone, because we are protesting against this: "You cannot do this. You cannot do this." As soon as say, "Oh, why you are decrying? He is also incarnation of God." What kinds of God? A rascal, we shall accept incarnation of God? You see? I am not so fool. Kṛṣṅa says that... What is that? Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajanti anya-devatāḥ [Bg 7.20]: "A person who is lost of his intelligence, he worships demigods." And a person worshiping a demigod, he become God. Just see. He's a nonsense, naṣṭa-buddhayaḥ, because he is worshiping demigod, and by worshiping demigod he became God. Where is this in the śāstra? This rascaldom is going on. First of all, anyone who worships a demigod, he is a rascal. And it is advertised, "By worshiping such and such demigod, a rascal has become God." And we have to accept that. We are not so foolish. First of all, he is a rascal, he has no knowledge. And one who has no knowledge and rascal, and he has become God. We have to accept that.

Indian man (1): When the people do not find any difference between the God and demigod...

Prabhupāda: Why? That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. If you do not find any difference between me and my disciple, then you are foolish man. If you say... If you say...

Indian man (1): In the beginning everybody is foolish. We are born foolish.

Prabhupāda: Well, born foolish, that... He has to become intelligent. But when he talks foolishly, he remains foolish.

Indian man (1): Well, so far he is not enlightened.

Prabhupāda: If he talks foolishly, that means he is still foolish. He has not attained any knowledge.

Indian man (6): But after getting the knowledge, then knowledge means when we completely know the Supreme Personality is Lord Kṛṣṅa, then he is all right.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Indian man (6): But those who have got no knowledge about all these things, so they must be worshiping some Devī, Gaṅeśa...

Prabhupāda: But why they take the position of a teacher? They should not take the position of a teacher. They should remain foolish, that "I have still to learn."

Indian man (1): Ah, that is the significance. They should not say that "I am already perfect." That is the thing. They should not claim like that.

Prabhupāda: That is our protest, that "You are a foolish. Why you are taking the position of a teacher? You are foolish. You are rascal. You don't take the position of a teacher. Then you are a cheater. First of all make your life..." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, janma sārthaka kari kara paropakāra [Cc Ādi 9.41]:

[One who has taken his birth as a human being in the land of India [Bhārata-varṣa] should make his life successful and work for the benefit of all other people.]

"First of all make your life successful. Then you become a teacher." Paropakāra. You are a fool number one and you are going to make paropakāra? Daridra-nārāyaṅa. [laughter] [chuckles] [break] ...when they take the position of teacher, they not only do harm to themselves but to others. So our protest is that "You are a fool, rascal. You go to hell. Why you induce others to go to hell?"

Indian man (1): They want some companions. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Why, why, why? This is very dangerous. If I know that "I am blind," why should I ask other blind man, "All right, you come behind me. I shall cross you the ocean"? Why this cheating? You say that "I am blind man. You are also blind man. So I cannot guide you." [break] That is sincerity. That is sincerity. [break] ...very much bewildered all over the world due to this rascal philosophy, that a blind man leading other blind men. So they should be delivered from this gross ignorance. [japa] [break] ...say that "We have got eyes, but we are being led by Kṛṣṅa, who has got real eyes. Therefore we are safe."

Indian man (1): In this world, unless they see the particular person...

Prabhupāda: They cannot see. He is blind, how he can see?

Indian man (1): It is very difficult to believe in God...

Prabhupāda: No, no, believe or don't believe. That is another thing.

Indian man (1): So we must have a spiritual eyes or something which is beyond our physical body. And so how..., why we are drowsing ourself, and why we are just galloping in a different way? Because everybody says it is beyond your...

Prabhupāda: No. Suppose you are blind. So you require the help of a man who has got eyes. So unless you are sure that "This man has got eyes," why should you take care of him? That is another ignorance. If I know the man who proposes to lead me, he is also blind, why shall I take his help?

Indian man (1): But if he says, "I am also blind," but just trying to find out the way...

Prabhupāda: Yes, so find out the right way. Find out a man who has got the eyes.

Indian man (1): But right..., everything is right...

Prabhupāda: No, no, "Everything is right," that is your misfortune. You do not know. Because we know the right man is Kṛṣṅa. Everyone knows. But your misfortune. You do not accept Kṛṣṅa. You accept something else.

Indian man (1): No, accepting Kṛṣṅa is..., no doubt about it.

Prabhupāda: Then accept Kṛṣṅa. Everyone knows.

Indian man (1): But generally, while people, they don't go blindly. That is what the difficulty is. They want open their eyes, they want to have opened their mind, and still, they wanted to be Kṛṣṅa conscious.

Prabhupāda: No, no, if there is doubt, if there is doubt, why shall I accept a person who is doubtful? Why not accept a person who is without doubt? Kṛṣṅa is accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all ācāryas. All ācāryas. So why not accept Kṛṣṅa? Why imitation Kṛṣṅa—this Kṛṣṅa, that Kṛṣṅa, dini-Kṛṣṅa? That is our protest. You accept Kṛṣṅa and be led by Him. The path is clear.

Indian man (1): The path is...?

Prabhupāda: Clear. [break] ...simply advertising that "You are searching after some leader. Take this leader, Kṛṣṅa." This is Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement. "We have taken. You also take." We don't say anybody else. No. We are fools. We do not know if there is anybody. So we are fools. Let us remain like a fool like that and tell and follow Kṛṣṅa. That's all. This is Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement. We don't say that "I have got eyes. I have got a full knowledge." No, we don't say that. Kṛṣṅa says. That's all. This is our version. We request that "You take Kṛṣṅa, you will be benefited." And actually it is being done. We don't present a false person. We present the real person, Kṛṣṅa. Now, if you are misfortunate, you cannot take, that is your business. That is your business.

Indian man (1): It is open, anybody can take.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...qualification is there. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṅa'-upadeśa. You speak only Kṛṣṅa's words. He doesn't say, "Your word, your interpretation." This is nonsense. Kṛṣṅa's words. What Kṛṣṅa has said, just speak it. Then you become spiritual master.

āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṅa'-upadeśa [Cc Madhya 7.128]

[Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa as they are given in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.]

And because you have become guru, you manufacture some ways and means, that is rascaldom. If you are guru, then you have to speak what Kṛṣṅa has said. That is guru. A guru does not manufacture anything. He is not guru. [break] ...activities. People are eager to give service to the fellow man, and not to the animals. How much blind they are. Just see. Animals have to be sent to the slaughterhouse, and fellow man should be given help. This is daridra-nārāyaṅa seva. And what this poor animal-nārāyaṅa has done? Because poor fund of knowledge. And here it is said that both the animal and the people should be taken care of. Who is taking care of the animals? Hundreds and thousands of animals are being slaughtered daily. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. Who is taking care of them? How much short-sighted they are. [break]

Girirāja: [reading] "...should see to the peace and comfort of his fellow man and the animals. The development of religious principles, economic development and sense gratification can then be achieved without difficulty."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: "Vasudeva expressed his sorrow..." [break]

Prabhupāda: ...stress on Kṛṣṅa. And they have written so many commentaries on the Bhagavad-gītā. And this is the first time we have given.

Italian man (1): Yes, very good. Marvelous. Fantastic. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...spoken. If somebody writes an ordinary book, one studies his life, his characters and everything, the authors. And these rascal will not study Kṛṣṅa. And they will comment upon Kṛṣṅa. Just see. Nobody is interested about the life of Kṛṣṅa.

[break] ...the authors, there is short sketch of life. But nobody writes Kṛṣṅa's life. You see? Nobody writes.

Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda writes.

Indian man (1): The same thing happens with so many other books also, because it is not known properly to proper persons...

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Why do they touch of writing books? They are foolish people. Why they should attempt to write books and mislead others? That is our protest. [break] ...Kṛṣṅa's life in two big, big volumes.

Indian man (1): But these volumes are very short, sir.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, the lowest. But they have not written even a page about Kṛṣṅa's life. And writing comments on Bhagavad-gītā. Just see how much rascal they are. Not even a page. Rather, they deny: "There was no Kṛṣṅa." Just see how much foolish they are, and they are writing comments on Bhagavad-gītā. That is our regret, that how these rascals dare to write on Bhagavad-gītā? [break]

Girirāja: "...when Vāsudeva was born..." [break]

Prabhupāda: ...said, "When there is danger, it is a great opportunity for remembering God." Tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamānaḥ [SB 10.14.8].

Indian man (1): And Kuntī.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kuntī said, "I shall pray for the dangerous position so that You could remain with us." [break]

Girirāja: ...open the snake in the original Bhāgavatam?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṅa is the kāla-sarpa, kāla. The time is Kṛṣṅa, kāla. Therefore you can compare with snake. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg 10.34].

[I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to be. Among women I am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, faithfulness and patience.]

Kāla means death. So snake, meeting a snake means death. So therefore He can be called snake.

Girirāja: "When Pūtanā was taking baby Kṛṣṅa on her lap, both Yaśodā and Rohinī were present." [break]

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa shows by example.

Devotee: Would that be a young cow or a mother cow?

Prabhupāda: Any cow.

Devotee: Any cow.

Girirāja: "The child was completely washed with the urine of a cow, and the dust created by the hooves of the cows was thrown all over His body." [break]

Prabhupāda: ...if they kill Kṛṣṅa, then all these question does not come. You see? Because they want to kill the cows. And if he worships Kṛṣṅa as the Supreme, then he has to accept these principle. Therefore they want to kill Kṛṣṅa.

Devotee: So they can kill the cows.

Girirāja: "The transcendental body of Kṛṣṅa did not require any protection, but to instruct us on the importance of the cow, the Lord was smeared over with cow dung and washed with the urine of the cow, sprinkled with the dust up raised by the walking of the cow." [break]

Prabhupāda: ...otherwise, yes. We shall come

Satsvarūpa: Ten to six.

Prabhupāda: No. Why ten to six?

Satsvarūpa: Five-thirty?

Prabhupāda: At least fifteen to six.

Italian man (1): How lucky those will be here. I have to go today. [break] ...and the construction of the...

Prabhupāda: The whole Sāma Veda is music. Gāyanti yana-sāmagāḥ. Sāma Veda is full of music. The musical sounds, sa re ga ma pa da, this is from Sāma Veda. Yes.

Italian man (1): Ācchā. Sama Veda? Is it possible to obtain technical materials of theorems, the way of combining notes to make [indistinct] for the Hare Kṛṣṅa and [indistinct]...

Prabhupāda: These are the symbolic, sa re ga ma, sarad ṛṣi garbha, like that. Different sounds.

Italian man (1): Yes. [end]